Submitted by JacMac
Hag, you said:
“I am still confused why anyone needs help? This is the most competitive country in the world. That is the way capitalism works and guess what… it has worked so well over a short 200 years, that the US is the most powerful, wealthiest nation in the world.”
Hag, really?
For whom has capitalism worked?
Is it for the elderly who faces ever increasing prices for medicine they need to stay alive and confusing drug coverage that will probably end up costing them more than they make on their pension fund, which is practically nothing because some Corporate executive cut throat spent it on all on a$$ and alcohol even though they were receiving millions of dollars in salaries?
Please tell me for whom capitalism has worked?
The Wall Street high rollers have raked in a fortune at the expense of the every day American who toils at work all day long only to face foreclosure because the toxic sludge loan that was sold to him is now foaming over and eating away at his just-above minimum wage salary job, the one he HAD to take because the job he worked at for ten years was outsourced to a third world country that if we haven’t invaded we’ll do so eventually if it has any wealth whatsoever that we can fleece.
Is it our children who are obese and uneducated compared to the rest of the world, who face inheriting a world that will be destroyed by Global Warming that our government will not even acknowledge, and has done nothing about because it will eat into the profits of the big Fortune 500 companies who support the American capitalistic society which promotes commercialism at the expense of the public welfare and common good?
Capitalism has divided America into a society of have and have-nots. Polarized, a vast majority of Americans are callous and cold and unfeeling — we don’t care about the elderly couple down the block on a fixed income who eat cat food for dinner; we don’t give two damns about the inner-city child who grows up knowing more about guns and drugs than he does about basic mutiplication; we are certainly capable of driving our gas guzzling SUV, with the Support the Troops bumper sticker in the back, and ignoring the young men who have been killed by the senseless war for profit against the fathom “evil doers”, and the deprived neighborhoods they come from, because they joined the military hoping to escape into a better life.
God forbid any help be proposed that involves Government intervention, the selfish doing-okay American who doesn’t give a God damn about his neighbors will bitch and moan about his tax dollars which if he doesn’t pay they’ll throw his ass in jail and good riddens.
Capitalism has made a vast majority of Americans into cut throat swindlers, someone who will do anything for the almighty dollar — peddle poison, sell death and promote and encourage sickness, to the uninsured no less.
Capitalism has made us forget that only people-oriented, collective, cooperative, compassionate solutions that benefit all (or at-least the vast majority) truly WORK.
Chavez orders his CITGO petroleum manufacturer to sell cheap oil to Americans who need it and I say, that’s what we need here.
Not dictatorship or socialism but a society where private greed does not prevail while collective need suffers.
So Hag, you said you were confused why anyone needs help?
Maybe you’re confused because it’s really you that needs the help, help seeing the truth.
Well, Moe has graciously created this blog and you’re here, so you’re well on your way.
{ 17 comments… read them below or add one }
I couldn’t understand some parts of this article oan Workout News, but I guess I just need to check some more resources regarding this, because it sounds interesting.
JacMac: have you ever been to Soviet Union or for that matter Cuba ? While I realize that type of existence (like a vegetation tended and cared for by a gardener) has certain appeals to some of the people I DO NOT WANT to live like that. If all people were nice, honest, hardworking and selfless that sort of socialist nirvana will work. However market based economy with that type of people will work even BETTER. Unfortunately not ALL people like I described and it turns out market based economy advantages increase EVEN MORE when people are selfish.
Alan, I hear you, loud and clear, but the solution is in the middle. I don’t think any of us should settle because we’re afraid of the worst case scenario. It doesn’t have to be like it was in the Soviet Union or it is in Cuba, but it certainly doesn’t have to be like it is in America.
Utopia in societies NEVER work — there’s millions of stories about that, because of what you mentioned, the human purpensity for greed.
That is why there HAS to be governing authorities to which people in the business of selling products and offering products to the masses have to be accountable.
But when greed and lack of integrity permeates our governing authorities, we are in big trouble.
We don’t have to live with greed and deceit just to have a little freedom.
I believe we CAN have freedom and integrity, don’t you?
I believe the key to this is accountability on all sides. Not just for the buyer, but for the lenders and the brokers, after all they have a responsibility for the product that they are offering to those who are not experts in the real estate field.
I love Moe’s example of a recall of a defective product. A majority of the loans which have contributed to this melt down were defective and all of the players, from the top to the bottom, EXCEPT for the buyer knew this all along.
Well there is actually a way to return a loan among with the asset against which it was lent back to the lender. It’s called jingle mail. The processes of getting out of bad debts/loans are called bankruptcy or foreclosure.
I’m just curious how loan recall would work for refinance with cash out/debt consolidation ? Those people have spent the money already what do they want now ? Have the cake and eat it too ? If they really want to unroll the transaction I guess they will have to come with amount that was cashed out/rolled in at refinance.
“I’m just curious how loan recall would work for refinance with cash out/debt consolidation ? Those people have spent the money already what do they want now ? Have the cake and eat it too ? If they really want to unroll the transaction I guess they will have to come with amount that was cashed out/rolled in at refinance.”
Alan, it sounds like you’re jaded. You have a very polarized view of the financial reasons why those who refinanced or bought homes did, which makes it difficult not to have a biased conversation with you.
How about opening up your mind to the possibility that not every homeowner bought a new Lexus with their refi money?
I mean: Which makes it very difficult to have an UNBIASED conversation with you.
Oh, I see, my arguments are biased. I have yet to read a story where refi was done for something that can be considered prudent. I’m aware of a family who lost their home due to medical problems but they are actually happy, for them it’s pretty good deal: just another house for life saving medical treatment. You don’t see family like that complain, contrary they think they hit the jackpot.
Instead we see people complaining who refinanced car loans, credit cards, who took cash outs for “business ventures” like that old lady and so on and now wanting recall. Well if you want to return the product don’t forget about cash you pulled and put i back.
“Oh, I see, my arguments are biased. I have yet to read a story where refi was done for something that can be considered prudent. I’m aware of a family who lost their home due to medical problems but they are actually happy, for them it’s pretty good deal: just another house for life saving medical treatment. You don’t see family like that complain, contrary they think they hit the jackpot.
Instead we see people complaining who refinanced car loans, credit cards, who took cash outs for “business ventures” like that old lady and so on and now wanting recall. Well if you want to return the product don’t forget about cash you pulled and put i back.”
Like I said, Alan — jaded. What did you have, an ex-wife who liked to spend money a bit too much: an over-indulgent teenager?
Open your mind. We all can’t fit into your little box. Get off of your high horse and have a little compassion — it won’t kill you and it just might make you into a better person.
Life has taught me one thing, judgmental people either do this willingly or the good Lord (karma, life — whatever you want to call it) kicks their butt to the ground and teaches them the hard way.
I have never divorced, why are you so interested in playing shrink when issue is that people feel entitled to spend as they wish and NOT PAY for consequences ? Very fine example of demagoguery on your part: when you can’t have rational argument you start attacking messenger. Grow up. There is no free money. As for life lessons, it looks like one very important one has been missed: DO NOT BUY STUFF YOU CAN NOT AFFORD. Is it really difficult to comprehend ? Or does sense of entitlement makes that simple argument as coming from “jaded person” ? I can not have compassion for people that spend on discretionary crap (business ventures, cars, kitchen remodels and what have you) and do not want to pay up. Again, if you can’t afford don’t buy it and if you do then don’t whine afterwards and suck it up. That’s all it is.
Since you’ve accused me of playing shrink, may I?
“why are you so interested in playing shrink when issue is that people feel entitled to spend as they wish and NOT PAY for consequences ? Very fine example of demagoguery on your part:When you can’t have rational argument you start attacking messenger. Grow up.”
Psychologically, we call that projection. You are the only one attacking here.
“I can not have compassion . . .”
Psychologically, if you give a person enough “room” they will always eventually tell you some undeniable truths about the way they think and view the world.
I have zero interest in conversing with closed minded people — if I wanted to do that, all I’[d have to do is go over and see my mother.
You’re describing the world you live in, through your tainted, jaded eyes.
I live in the REAL world. In my world people vary in intentions, thoughts, desire, behaviors, and I don’t ascribe the fallibilities of one group to all.
“Why are you so interested in playing shrink when issue is that people feel entitled to spend as they wish and NOT PAY for consequences ?”
Alan, that is not the issue at all, not the entire issue, and at most only a small part of the very big issue — but I’ll let Moe explain it to you. Although, I’m sure he might be tired of repeating himself.
Oh, I see your view is untainted and your world is real because you say it is ? Waving your hand and appealing to authority, looks like next trick of demagogue. Please elaborate on undeniable truths, go on, I’m all eyes and ears. And I assume you were not jaded with the post that started this “The Wall Street high rollers have raked in a fortune at the expense of the every day American” ? You see, dear shrink, before pointing out deficiencies in others it does make sense to look in the mirror first so it wouldn’t sound ridiculous later.
When you get free time you should watch SNL clip on youtube where they present the concept that you have so hard time understanding “Do not buy stuff you can not afford”.
The simple fact is that you have to pay for what you buy. Looks like you are trying to wiggle out of the payment part and keep the stuff giving all kind of rationalizations why you deserve it. Go on, but no sane person will buy that.
To realize that you do not understand is a virtue; Not to realize that you do not understand is a defect.
Lao Tzu
Alan, you can go on all day long about homeowners that can’t afford their homes. This mortgage and real estate crisis is not about that.
It’s about a system that failed and lenders that took advantage of a failed syetem by creating defective credit instruments ie: subprime loans.
It does not matter what the end consumer did. They did not cross the line of “predatory lending”, “steering” and massive fraud. Yes, alan, some did. But in no way shape or form in the way that the dealers did.
Yes, alan, the lenders and Wall Street were the dealers of this mess that we now sit in.
NOT HOMEOWNERS.
Regardless of how and where homeowners are, it was at the finger tips of a serioulsy flawed system that was meant to fail for the have nots and make the have’s sickly rich.
You do not blame a person for eating tainted beef, because he bought it form the store. You don’t blame a person for dying, because he took a drug that he did not know that was dangerous.
Yes, some people bought homes they could not afford but it was based on lenders selling funny money.
I’ll be damned if I am going to see 2 million foreclosures because of what lenders and wall street created and just watch Alan, there will be a massive bail out of homeowners and these scams will be front page fro years to come and many CEO’s and CFO’s will perish in Federal Prisons.
Guaranfrickenteed!
Moe, lenders may very well were hustlers and pimps but stories profiled so far on your web site are about cash out refinances for various stupid reasons and they show that plenty of borrowers were addicts. They surely weren’t going after life necessities like food and medicine instead it was for more apt analogy would be booze (business ventures, WTF is that ?). Just because Stoli is sold in grocery store next to beef doesn’t mean you need to get wasted. May drug lords rot in federal prison but again I’m not going to feel sorry for addicts who were buying crap instead of life necessities.
Moe, lenders may very well were hustlers and pimps but . . .
Moe, in this sentence, “but” means, forget everything that I just said.
It doesn’t matter how many times it’s pointed out that not all homeowners were looking to strike it rich, Alan seems to be hell bent on bashing the homeowners who made bad choices. He is the supreme authority on what “life’s necessities” are and the moral police on lending practices — oops, I’m sorry, I mean borrowing practices.
Lending practices, corrupt and fraudulant though they may be, does not seem to make it onto his radar screen. In fact, the fraudulant schemes of the banks, Loan Officers and brokers to entrap borrowers into defective loan products that the professionals in the industry knew would blow up in the borrower’s face does not seem to matter in the grand scheme of things when Alan is chastising the borrowers who HE has had declared spent too much on “crap” and bought too much house.
We should all listen closely and carfully to Alan, because he has determined that MOST (?????) of the stories here are mostly about cash out refinances for “various stupid reasons” — Alan has declared it, so it must be so. He is not going to feel sorry. Well, he has spoken!
I don’t consider a homeowner who consolidates debt via a loan that they qualify for via underwriting guidelines to be an addict. Some, yes, but you can’t classify ALL in this category. This is like any type of discrimination.
The facts are that there these loans were not designed for the long term. Now, borrowers are “stuck” in them. Like a communist loan of sorts and the lenders and servicers are the dictators.
People can’t get out of them, EVER!
It’s worse then a pay day loan on steroids.
For that fact, they should be recalled immediately do to their predatory nature. Regardless of who the victims are.
I think you will agree JacMac, even if you weren’t in this situation, I feel ou would have the same view.
This will conclude the Moe Report.
Yes, I do agree Moe and you’re right, I would even if I wasn’t in the same situation because I understand what it means to be VICTIMIZED and PREYED UPON. It IS discrimination to lump all homeowners into the same group, and it’s the type of thinking that absolves lenders and industry leaders from the responsibility that they have for peddling this toxic stuff to the public in the first place. Over and Out!