By Poppy (30 year mortgage industry veteran and senior underwriter)
Well, my hat is off to you citizens of America, you have not disappointed me once again. Just about everyone that responds to the articles in the Newspapers and Media that report on this now widening foreclosure debacle, has in their infinite wisdom, deemed that the distressed borrower is to blame.
They were greedy, stupid, ignorant, sleazy, lazy, crooks, opportunists, trailer trash, white trash, illegals……
No you have not disappointed me your overall ignorance and ability to assign blame, business as usual, the blame game, wasn’t me, we are above that, we are better than they are, we got our slice of the pie and we are not going to pay for theirs.
WELL GET THIS STRAIGHT……YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR THEIR SLICE OF THE PIE.
You are paying for the greedy, sleazy, ignorant, dare I say criminal opportunists that proliferated Wall Street that created the markets for these toxic loan products and the Major Lending Institutions that actually made these toxic loans to borrowers to be delivered to those markets.
They lined their personal and corporate pockets and now you are going to ante up after they are gone, out of business, booted out of their executive offices, book their write downs, in order to shore up the system that allowed them to waltz away with the billions they made from the fleecing of America with these toxic loans.
The distressed borrower is at the bottom of this Ponzi scheme, they do not get anything apparently other than your disdain and a tremendous amount of heart break, sorrow and increased financial distress with the loss of their homes.
Let us really look at what that borrower is actually getting if we end up footing the bill for Wall Street and the Lenders, make the loan modifications, forgive some seconds (the equity is not there to make the second lien viable, never was), refinance them into “special” fixed rate products, or just plain fix their rates, so that they do get to keep their slice of the pie. Also, let us look at what you get in return since you already have your slice of the pie, or so you think.
The borrower at best is getting a “stay” of execution with these modifications, his/her rate is already significantly higher than yours…did you know that the teaser rates on these abominations were already fully indexed at 8.50% and above, they get that nasty interest rate fixed for another 5 to 7 years. Then it reverts back to the Adjustable status it originally had, right back to the original problem.
Presently with a FICO of 680 or above you can get a fixed rate conforming mortgage for 5.875%, par price. When they obtained their original loan, the rates were even lower than that for the A quality borrower, somewhat closer to 5.50% or less. You did not directly fork over any hard earned dollars for that modification, did you?
Forgive the second, there I have to admit they gotcha, you will still be stuck with your second and upside down in your mansion, but then again forgiving their second may wind up as whipped cream on your slice of the pie.
Refinance the borrower into a nice safe fixed rate FHA Secure or regular FHA product, oh my, then they are just like you, in a safe fixed rate product with stability and predictability. They paid the costs to obtain the refinance, why do you care, you did not come out of pocket with a dime.
We in the lending game just made some new rules in conjunction with the old stringent rules. Crossed our fingers that the somewhat relaxed guidelines and risk models used are adequately supported by the borrower’s willingness and capacity to make continued payments, as they had shown in the past, prior to their payments adjusting to the phenomenally gross interest rates they are adjusting to today, like 11.50% (some of these nasty things have rate caps at 15% or better).
How would you survive if your payment went up 500.00 or more for 6 months, and then 6 months later another 500.00 or more? Bet you would have serious financial difficulties as well, oh I forgot you are to good to have that problem.
Fix their rates, well they are already higher than your rates, guess you can still be superior, but you still did not have to pay anything directly for that modification, so nothing out of your pocket. Or are you just incensed that you did not get to participate in this “easy” deal when you obtained your mortgage?
Now just where does the money fly out of your pocket, oh…..the fact that by doing all of the above means that the Lender/Investor does not make the originally anticipated profit. That is only partially what you have the honor of paying for.
Next you get to fork over your hard earned dollars to the foreclosures, there the Lender/Investor really does not realize profits, in truth with today’s foreclosure rates no one is showing up to bid, so now they are really under water on profits. It costs real money to foreclose and declining markets mean that the value of the foreclosed property is nowhere near worth the balance of the loan(s) let alone the balance of the loan(s) and costs of foreclosure.
While we are on the subject of declining markets, your book losses or real losses realized by the decline in your property value/equity, depending on when you purchased your home or last refinanced your home is more money out of your pocket. Now where else did you lose a few dollars, oh, your investment/retirement funds have directly invested in some of these Toxic loan securitizations and the companies that also directly invested, bet that hit the old retirement pocketbook.
Yes indeed, then there are a number of states that invested in these securitizations, your state income taxes are surely going to raise to cover those shortfalls, less state services, roads, highways…. Those neighborhoods with all of those foreclosed homes, declining property values, declining property tax assessments, less money flows into the local government coffers for infrastructure support, schools, fire protection, police protection……up go the property taxes on your house by virtue of a raise in the mill levy. Sales tax collections are down, oh dear, more services down the drain.
Employer’s are reluctant to move into your community, services are not sufficient to support their needs, communities can not afford them, no “spiffs” to entice corporate biggies to locate to your area, no funds in the city fathers coffers to make those “spiffs” available for economic development and increased employment opportunities.
So…..we the tax payer are going to come to the table to compensate the Wall Street boys and all of the Major Lending Institutions of this country for their avarice, let us hang the price tag on the actual merchandise we are purchasing. As we do that, if we allow the modification, refinance and partial forgiveness of the distressed borrower we just may avert a vast portion of the trickle down into our communities. Detroit, Ohio, Florida, Orange County, Nevada…..take a long hard look at the effects/affects in those areas, do not assume that it can not happen in your backyard, it already is.
Then to the final sum of this equation, what do you the blame sayers “get” for your contribution, you who do not have this albatross around your neck in your smug condemnation. For starters, and most near and dear to you perhaps the property value of your mansion may not decline to depths of sub-terrain value. Granted it is already declined, do you want it to decline further?
Save the guy next door, save yourself. Property taxes, already unpleasant, may avoid a really hefty hit, services will be diminished, but not fiscally impossible for the official coffers. Save the guy next door, save yourself. Oh, congratulations you got a new, huge job, in another state, you have to sell your mansion, “impossible” says the Realtor, sales are totally stagnant due to the housing crisis, value does not support your debt and you have to come to the table with gasp, real money, what to do…….join the ranks of the distressed.
Rent will not even cover that payment in todays rent dollars……join the ranks of the distressed. Save the guy next door, save yourself. State income taxes are here to stay, got to love them, however, if the investment these State Officials made can be shored up with the rescue of these homeowners/securitizations, your paycheck may not look so bleak.
My suggestion here is find out who the idiot was who recommended these investments and if he/she was elected vote ‘em out, if appointed, vote the guy/gal who appointed them out. You are getting ready to retire and sell that mansion and move to Shangri La, Realtor says “impossible” (see above), your retirement income does not even begin to cover the dues on that mansion…….join the ranks of the distressed.
Save the guy next door, save yourself.
Oh, the whipped cream as relates to the Second Lien, which I do believe even some of you blame sayers possess, just maybe, if you too are upside down in your mansion, the largess of this “bailout” may allow you to obtain some relief in this area, if not, the benefit may just be that you do not become further upside down.
Save the guy next door, save yourself.
Foreclosures, a blemish for the neighborhood, attraction to vandals, depressing to property values, and fiscally unsound, could be averted. Save the guy next door, save yourself. Your retirement and investment dollars, aside, did you know that major corporations invested in these securitizations, probably not, but they did, they are being impacted, their dividends are impacted, your rate of return is impacted.
Save the guy next door, save yourself.
Federal taxes, well, we all are going to have to pay more, but save that distressed homeowner now, less than if you save him/her later, believe me the price tag gets higher the longer we wait. All the possible combinations of the trickle down effect/affect to the general economy. Save the guy next door, save yourself.
Getting the picture?
Now, for those of you who have closed a loan in the last 3 to 4 years, I want you to go to that closing package and pull out those documents. Sit down with a cup of coffee, or if you are inclined something stronger and review those documents.
You just may need that something stronger, do you really know what product you bought, are you positive that you are not at risk? Did you sign for that ever popular Option ARM…..what would your principal balance on your mortgage be today, lot higher than when you obtained that loan I am guessing. Does your property value support that increased balance in time to obtain a new non toxic product. Did you get an Interest Only Product, 5/1 or 7/1, eeks, you maybe getting ready to adjust and recast, ugly, get out the calculator and figure that out…….you really do need something stronger. Did you get a fully amortizing 5/1 or 7/1, still going to adjust, not recast, but adjust. Just what kind of niche product did you fall into with the glib assurances of that Broker or Builder who sold you that loan. Are you in an 80/10 or 80/20 Combo?
Does the value of your property support the lien positions presently reflected, in other words just how upside down are you? Did they “help” you when you purchased that mansion, the Builder or Broker in his conciliatory tones, “no problem, unable to sell that existing house” we will obtain a lower payment on it for you so that you can afford both, check those documents out as well. At this point I would get the whole bottle out for further reference.
Now a word to those of you blame assigners who feel that you are still above the fray, did not buy, have been making those predictable payments for the last 10 or better years, did not refinance, if you did do either, you obtained a normal 30 year fixed rate product with a 10% to 20% equity position. Please re-read the paragraph as relates to the “final sum of this equation” more than once carefully.
Take the implications of this debacle down to the inevitable answer to the equation, if we do not fix it post haste, definite recession, and possible depression. Now you can do the Ostrich thing, but remember with your head in the ground your butt is completely exposed and you can not see it coming.
Finally, I know that it is easier to point the finger and assign blame, you feel better, oh so far more superior and not quite as vulnerable, so if you must, assign the blame directly where it belongs.
Bear Sterns, CitiGroup, Lehman, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse, Morgan Stanley, UBS, JP Morgan Chase, Fitch, Moody’s, Duitche Bank, Barclay’s, CountryWide, Ameriquest, Argent, Wells Fargo, WAMU, RESMAE, Encore, Accredited, Acoustic, New Century, Option One, Fremont, ALS (Lehman lender), First Franklin (Merrill Lynch), Saxon, EMC (Bear Sterns lender), WMC, MILO, Lime, Meritage (not the builder, the lender), CitiMortgage, IndyMac, Ames, Impac, Long Beach, HSBC, Decision One, Chase, Bank of America, Pulte, US Homes/Lennar, DR Horton, Ryland, Meritage (the builder), Beazer, Lydian, Clayton, Bohan, Ocwen, ACS, HomeEq, CountryWide (servicer), Wall Street Traders, Investment Bankers, Institutional Product Development & Risk, Appraisers (you know who you are if you are culpable for those inflated or fraudulent appraisals), Brokers (you also know who you are if you participated, fee income over 3% qualifies you along with all of the fraudulent income and assets provided on that application to induce approval), Underwriters that did not just get up and walk out (we knew better, guidelines be damned), ALL of us in the Industry who DID, and I do mean DID, see the handwriting on the proverbial wall and were clearly aware of the implications of our participation and actions.
We made you party to the biggest financial game of chance in history, you lost, now you get to bail us out indirectly through the homeowner, we made him/her the ball on the roulette wheel.
BLAME US, we DESERVE it, not the distressed homeowner, ’cause you know, most likely you are, or are going to be that distressed homeowner, if not today, then in the immediate future, due to the parties cited above.
If not then kudos to you (but I seriously think you are in the Ostrich position).
Then take a mental inventory of who in your family or circle of friends, co-workers and neighbors that you really CARE about is that quietly frantic distressed homeowner, can you really blame them? Better not, because there for the Grace of God go you.
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Stop taking all of the blame. If you really want to help out, get all the rich criminals on Wall Street to start compensating the people they screwed. That’s a good place to start.
Don’t forget California drives the products. 45% of all subprime loans were originated in CA. That is why Chase is doing so well. Their limited loan sizes protected them when the value’s went over 500k.
Alt A was primarily developed for the loans in CA.
Subprime loan limits were increased because of values in CA.
Stated loans were stretched because of the demand in CA.
Only 12% of households in CA can afford the median priced home at a 90% LTV in CA. in 2006, down from 19% at end of 2004. The Alt A market started to explode when? 2002.
Yes Greed and deliberate stupidity.
its called the home afforability index. its easy to find.
When products are available for CA. again, the market will stablize.
you are officially the biggest idiot I have ever heard!! I’ve never seens someone’s thinking so upside down and retarded. Grow up and accept responsibility for YOU…and let the lenders accept responsibility for THEMSELVES! If the government would just stay out of this everyone would get their just due!…except me that is! I didn’t default on anything…bought what I could afford….but all you wackos left me with a recession, maybe worse. Even still, if you guys have to suffer the consequences maybe you’ll be smarter next time and make better decisions. I doubt it though…your whinning to the politicians is sure to bring some underserved relief to reward your idiocy….Hillary needs your vote! Congratulations. We’ll be back here again in another generation because kooks like you always pass the buck…and never accept personal responsibility!!! Consequently, the guilty NEVER learn their lesson….uncle Sam always bails them out.
Amen, Walter.
Todd and Walter = 2 peas in a pod
Poppy = The Truth
Reality = You Can’t Handle the Truth
Hey Bruce, can you get a Wall Street donation for Poppy and I?
I think it is horrible that you blame everyone in the banks, mortgage industry, appraisers, brokers, etc. You don’t know what you are talking about! Blame everyone!
There are bad apples in every bunch, that is true. Where are the homeowners who still cashout to buy their luxury suv’s that they really cannot afford? they take cashout every 6 mos until the equity is gone? They asked for the lowest monthly payment – as they would with a car- just get them in the minimansions they think they so deserve. I cannot tell you how many “don’t care, arm, i/o, whatever it takes to keep payment at X”. People living beyond their means!
As far as the “high fico borrowers” who supposedly got abused with subprime loans- there was a time when the subprime was better than fannie mae rates. There was also a time when their scores were not up to a fannie mae loan, others who had short term plans, thus opted for an adjustable rate, still others who wanted no money down when subprime was the only option. Every consumer has the option to shop for the best rates, most opted not to. That is a shame. They have 3 days to review the terms of the loan they sign for on a refinance, they chose not to review. The can bring counsel to closing- they chose not to. They bought the lexus when they could only afford the kia. People should be responsible for their own financial situation. The fact that values dropped at the time of tightening credit standards played a big part in this.
All the solutions I see will not fix the problem, just politicians trying to look like they have a solution.
I would love to see the credit profile of the person who posted this originally. I would love to see how he/she qualified. I would love to see if the politicians paid points, took arms, cashout, i/o, etc. I am sure most utilized all the expanded guidelines available. Very few went the safe 30 yr fixed way. Oh, by the way, rates are just as good as they were in 2003! If you qualify, you may even be able to do better!
Rates will come down, they already have. Good luck with refinancing that upside down home. I’m sure that most folks in the banks that process my loan payment on my 2003 Toyota (sorry no Lexus here) knew nothing of this mess – but they guys wearing the suits in the corporate offices knew exactly what was going on.
They’ll still suffer the writedowns that will emerge, but the brunt of the blame game will fall on the backs of the middle-class working Americans just as it always has. The rich got richer and the poor will get poorer. Those that went the ’safe and traditional route’ with less risk will see compassion for the ‘rich’ and stand in their corner and place blame on the bottom of the food chain when the next Wall Street scam rolls around.
Poppy, you’ve done it again — amen.
Walter, Todd, your crony — Poppy wrote this amazing, articulate, compassionate article and THAT’S what you came up with?
You make yourself look like a bigger idiot than you really are. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. LOL
The one party that everybody seems to forget in this whole mess are the greedy investors who were buying properties with option arms and other subprime loans 10 to 15 houses/condos at a time.
I worked in the mortgage industry off and on from 2003 to 2005. Most people who blame the “dead-beat” homeowner don’t have a clue how many people were outright lied to about what type of mortgage they were getting. If you got a mortgage from Ameriquest/Argent there is probably an 85% to 95% chance that you were lied to and a party to some type of mortgage fraud.
Back to the investors…when property stopped appreciating, and the buyers put the brakes on, they were the ones left holding the bag. Most of them could not afford to hold the properties they had beyond the teaser rate expiring…once they couldn’t unload their properties, they just bailed…what did they care…it wasn’t their personal residence…but many of them lied and said that they were buying the property owner-occupied in order to get loans with lower rates…
The problem with most Americans is they are to self involved to even want to see the bigger picture…nobody actually cares about their neighbors and “friends”…you will when there are four or five vacant houses on your block though…
There’s so much blame to go around.
Some brokers screwed their clients for bigger commisions, other didn’t.
The senior management at the lending organizations were incompetent, not doing their job which was to evaluate risk.
Some borrowers were greedy wanting the high life without earning it, others failed to perform due diligence in making financial decisions.
Regulators failed miserably, not questioning why underwriting standards that had been trusted for so long were thrown away.
What Poppy’s article fails to recognize is that the pain is coming and it can’t be fixed. There is no way that we can save enough guys next door to fix the problem. Do what you can to help a neighbour, not because you believe that we can avoid the coming pain but because it is the right thing to do.
I’M AN IDIOT
moe, lets get more constructive. here is what you can do-
promote Domestic growth.
fact: 71% of US GDP is consumer spending.
Your vote may not count, but your dollars do. Prepare for some economic pain and inflation, and $20 loaves of bread… however if We The People endorse and demand local job growth and businesses we can take our contry back.
Stop shopping at places that send our dollars overseas for a dollar savings. Invest in ourselves, keep the dollars home and the rest will work itself out.
There are not many choices right now, but if people stop buying foreign crap believe me they will stop making it, and domestic growth will thrive if we support it.
Proud Homeowner,
Pointing fingers and making personal attacks isn’t going to accomplish anything. How many months in the last few years have you heard the industry say ‘they need to raise the limit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac loans’ so folks in ‘higher priced’ areas can afford traditional type financing and aviod the higher costs and interests rates associated with Jumbo loans?
I have no problem taking my share of the blame in this mess, but it seems the govt in this case was a little smarter than the folks asking for these adjustments. My issue with this whole mess is that yes, I bought my home at about the peak of the rise and paid xx dollars for it. Nonetheless, I assumed it was worth the amount I paid for it. Now that it is worth xx – 100 grand or so, it rattles my cage a little. In the four years I have owned this home I actually thought that due to the law of supply and demand, that because home were getting so expensive to buy – that rents would actually rise. You see, in my case I knew I would have to move in about four to five years. Well, four to five years are up and rental rates have gone down, and the value of my home skyrocketed for about two years, but now it is in a death spiral.
I’ll take the ding on my credit for the best of the three evils I see as possibilities; be that a short sale, deed-in-lieu, or a straight up foreclosure. So yes, I and many like me will take a ding on our credit reports and maybe have to live with a judgment that will take us further into insolvency and possibly even into bankruptcy. I’ll go back to renting a house of similar size and pay much less monthly to rent, vice own, and sock away much more money into retirement accounts that stay far the hell away from real estate. So yes, with regards to going down – I’m ready to accept that responsibility = more better for me in the long run. But in case you haven’t noticed; the rest of economy, and even the global economy to some extent, is starting to come down with this mess.
So, if that’s the simple solution – blame the homeowner – problem solved! However, I don’t think the buck stops there.
“Do what you can to help a neighbour, not because you believe that we can avoid the coming pain but because it is the right thing to do.” – Al
This wraps it up quite nicely — thanks, Al!
ProudHomer – “You ask us not to condemn all borrowers and then have no compunction whatsoever trashing an entire industry. You are a true piece of shit.”
What’s a matter, you can dish it out but can’t take it, huh? Smarts, don’t it, to be lumped into a group and labeled negatively — don’t feel so good, huh?
Don’t answer, please, please, don’t reply (now I know for a fact that you will – LOL
)
People like you are so eaaaasssily manipulated to show their true colors, all any one has to do is give you a dose of TRUTH, then you start showing the nasty, disgusting ugliness that resides inside of you.
Because don’t you work hard to cover up with that sales pitch.
That’s how many homeowners got suckered in the first place. WE were dealing with slime, dressed up like professionals — street thugs with a street mentality but they were sooooooo clever at covering it up.
You call us fools because we’re good people who don’t expect lies from professionals — who don’t understand how someone can deceive so many people and sleep at night
You have contempt for us because we are still able to CARE while inside you are dead, dead, D E A D trying to use money and things to fill that terrilbe hole inside of you — the emptiness because you’ve lost touch with what it is to be human.
Please don’t show us anymore evidence of how inhuman you are, PH — please don’t project your toxic thinking onto us anymore . . . ( ha, ha, ha, but I know you will.)
It’s the only way you can feel anything is it, isn’t it?
Isn’t it?
Come on prove me right.
Every single negative thing you say speaks to your character, describes the type of person YOU are, gives us a glimpse of your cold, rotten heart.
Come on, show me the REAL YOU — you just can’t stop yourself from doing so, can you?
It’s the only real connection to anyone that you can achieve, tearing another person down and watching them suffer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Poppy. I’ve heard it all and yours is more of the same. Everybody’s looking for an easy out – the old everybody has rights, but nobody has responsibilities liberal crapola. It’s Wall Street’s fault, it’s the brokers, it’s the lenders, yada, yada, yada!
Here is what I look at: in April of 2005 the net savings rate in America turned negative. Who is responsible for that? It’s all the same crap – whether it’s teachers driving Mercedes’, ordinary people with $50,000+ in credit card debt, or people buying houses they can’t afford, it’s the instant gratification society we live in. Can’t afford that house with a 30 year fixed mortgage? – go for the option ARM. Don’t be so stupid as to think that anyone had to hold a gun to these stupid borrower’s heads. That is a cop out by a coward not willing to address the reality of the issue, and ultimately not going to stop it from happening again. What is happening in the mortgage business now is the painful reality of that instand gratificaton mentality. As much as we are in the midst of a reassessment of risk, we are in the midst of a reassessment of our souls and what is important to us individually and as a nation. Do we really want to be defined by the house we live in or the car we drive? Because, don’t kid yourself, too many folks DO look at things that way! An THAT is the problem!
fuck all you mutha fucker in here . you guys thinks you know’s everything america fuck up! the gov.t the people the wall street pigs all people in this country fuck all you mutha fuckers.
It’s not about who’s to blame anymore…we should be way beyond that. The bottom line is, there’s a global economic meltdown on the horizon to the tune of trillions of dollars…yeah…trillions. We have yet to even scratch the surface. What does the future hold? I have no friggen clue, but from my perspective, it ain’t lookin too good.
So then, the blame game is over, (hypothetically), now what? Do we let this disaster run its course? As of right now, these “toxic” mortgages no longer exist for originators to originate. That particular money spigot has been turned off…with vice-grips. So as far as any future “toxicity,” the outlook looks pretty good. But what about the present? What would be the ramification(s) of letting this play itself out? Would it be worse than doing as Poppy suggested…help your neighbor, help yourself? Would doing nothing really accomplish anything? Or should the government step in and bail out those homeowners that are in trouble? Where was the government, the SEC, the FTC, the Office of the Comptroller, et al? Where were they when they should have been monitoring the quality of every step of the mortgage process? I wish I had the answer (I’d sell it to Wall Street if I did).
One thing I think I’ve learned, is that when times were good, and money was cheap and easy to come by…(cheap and easy, sounds like my ex-wife, but that’s for a whole other discussion) NOBODY complained about anything…NOBODY…People that thought they could never qualify for, let alone afford a home, were happy as hell to close…the loan officer who told that client that nobody could get them that loan but him, and that’s why he had 2 origination points plus 2 ysp, was happy as hell at the closing (let alone that he put them in a 2/28, thinking he had a repeat client in 1-2 years), to the ae who got his bonus for volume that month, he was happy as hell, to the lender that bundled and sold that mortgage along with many others was happy as hell, to the investors that invested in the mbs’s, cdo’s, siv’s, and making their huge returns, were happy as hell…until now…unemployment is horrible, people losing their jobs, can’t afford the house payment, (let alone the adjusted house payment), and the lo who can’t refinance that client because, well his client’s unemployed, and well, the property value depreciated, to the lender who now has to repurchase the loan because of the default….and so on…
I hope I made my point without rambling (too much)…that there’s no blaming anybody, because we’re all at fault, period. Can we get past the blame game? That really gets us nowhere. And there is a lot of finger pointing and name calling (feels like i’m in first grade on the playground again) yet no real solution being offered. Again, I wish I had the answer…collectively, we need to find a solution. Thanks for letting me speak my mind.
wow, hans…well said, really…well said…
Hans…
WTF was that all about….Did We see you on Dr. Phil
Blame it on the bad loan officers, lenders, bankers who screwed up my loans. Shiat!! they sold my soul and maxed me up like a credit card and all this time I thought I was paying a good loan. When I found out, it was their prostitute neg. ARM interest that locked me up for years with a nasty deferment. Burned in H%$# and keep my home. I’m tired of paying this stupid loan. A#$holes, I missed my old fashion 30 year fixed rate mortgage loan. So quit selling us all those fancy shiat how you can save money and live in hell!!!
I think the main message of Poppy’s hope is we should be helping our neighbors and not blaming them.
Yep, Harvey Walters, our fellow countrymen/countrywomen turned into debt addicts getting high on debt crack. Wall Street drug lords promptly delivered product to street corner pimps (brokers and LOs) who sold the debt crack to the ever happy party goer customer and so mass debt orgy began.
The other day post from JacMac really put a spotlight on mentality of the debt addict: everything from car maintenance to braces has to be financed with debt. Concept of saving is completely alien.
And you are absolutely right: default recidivism for modified loans historically is pretty high 30-60% according to various stats but for these recent loan mods I would bet it will be even higher. The underlying issue of people willing easily to bury themselves in the debt hole is NOT addressed and so modified loan will default again. Debt levels are just too high.
Hey Moe, thanks for deleting my comments. If I had any doubts as to who it was that couldn’t handle truth, you just eliminated them.
JacMac – take the time to step outside your insulated little world. Come out and fight like a man (that’s figuratively!). Let’s hear what you have to say in a forum where not everyone automatically buys your victim status. Start with patrick.net – they’re talking about you!
I figure that people in trouble with their housing fall into 3 categories.
a) They used a bad mortgage
b) They bought too much house
c) Both a) and b)
If you are in category b) or c), you should strongly consider getting out of the house as soon as possible. Symptoms include inability to save for long term or short term goals, not being able to handle minor financial setbacks and constantly worrying about losing your house. Moving on will help yourself both emotionally and financially, and will help your neighbour in category a) by freeing up lenders’ attention for loan mods.
For anyone searching for a solution, there isn’t one that will avoid the coming dark times. House prices will continue to fall and the global economy will go into recession but the world will not end. We’ll become more realistic with our expectations, we’ll become tougher, and we’ll become wiser.
Small victories are the way forward. If you can afford it, help a relative with their mortgage. If you’re on the edge with your own mortgage, take a boarder (you help yourself and them). Don’t waste money, but save so you can help yourself in the future. Don’t accept the crapconomics that shopping will save the ecomony. Shake off the mentality that owning things makes you happy. It’s friends and family that do that. But remember that money does matter for survival and make financial decisions based on financial reasoning.
Proudhomeonwer: “JacMac – take the time to step outside your insulated little world.”
Can you imagine? You first!
Proudhomeowner: “Let’s hear what you have to say in a forum where not everyone automatically buys your victim status. Start with patrick.net – they’re talking about you!”
Annnnnnnd???? They’re talking about me, so what? I know you’d love to have me in a place where you and your cronies could gang up and bully me but . . . I make it a point never to converse intelligently with someone who is not listening to me. I can imagine that they’d be a lot of
people NOT listening over on that forum. That doesn’t make for good, positive communication — not that you’d understand that.
This article is not about blame or being a victim, it’s about reality and helping your fellow man — in saying that I support Poppy one hundred percent — as always!
Al: “Shake off the mentality that owning things makes you happy. It’s friends and family that do that. But remember that money does matter for survival and make financial decisions based on financial reasoning.”
You just keep getting better and better. That’s the kind of thinking we need to focus on! Thanks for writing that!
“The other day post from JacMac really put a spotlight on mentality of the debt addict: everything from car maintenance to braces has to be financed with debt. CONCEPT OF SAVING MONEY IS COMPLETELY ALIEN.” — Alana
Every single negative thing you say speaks to YOUR character, not my own — you have absolutely no idea who I am or how I handle my finances. And you’re wrong — AGAIN.
Well, I’m disappointed but not surprised that you will not agee to an “intelligent” discussion on neutral ground with anyone who disagrees with you, particularly when your usual response (see above) is to name call, question character, etc.
“Hey Moe, thanks for deleting my comments. If I had any doubts as to who it was that couldn’t handle truth, you just eliminated them. . . Well, I’m disappointed but not surprised that you will not agee to an “intelligent” discussion on neutral ground with anyone who disagrees with you, particularly when your usual response (see above) is to name call, question character, etc.”
How very typical. Because no one hear can read your disgusting words, you now try to project them onto me — all of a sudden YOU are the calm nice guy and I am the one to name call and question character. Moe is smarter than me, he did the right thing by completely IGNORING you!
PH — I’m done. Go play your mind games with someone else.
Proud Home Owner – Name call? That appears to be your balliwick, judging from the post that was deleted by others. You discussion was far, and I do mean far from intelligent in that particular post. However, in your defense, I have checked out Patrick.net, not much there that I do not agree with in basic principal, actually we are coming from the same direction on many issues, different solutions, that is rational discourse, good stuff, better than name calling. But – then again, I got your attention. Perhaps your failure is in that the bigger picture is escaping you, fleeting in its perceived impact to your little insulated world, well that impact is going to hit here real soon full force, BAM.
What you have failed to glean from my editorial is that we are all in this boat together, we are our neighbor if this is allowed to free fall, you homeowner or renter are going to be in the proverbial toilet whether you believe it or not, you are your neighbor. That toilet is not just your house, it is your 401(k), your taxes, your employers continued ability to employ you, your overall expenses…..it is a domino effect to your life and directly impacts the quality of life you would like to maintain. We can not blame the consumer for what we demanded that he/she have, we spoon fed him/her this toxic mixture. We told him/her that it was a healthy diet……
Yesterday the World Markets gave us a resounding vote of extremely STUPID. Today our markets are in deep “stuff”, we are in horrible shape as far as the confidence of World Markets are concerned, and that should with the globalization of the World’s Economy worry you. Our markets are seriously impaired and will continue that trend. You are young I suspect, and your heritage and expected opportunities that you should be able to run with, have been sold down the river, you my friend are being sold down the river. Your future is being sold down the river – I would be angry to. Please sit down for a minute and examine the situation and determine just whom you should be angry with, put all prejudice and hostility aside, for me or any others that you might feel are easy to rail at, make an independent and informed decision. Quickly please – come to the table with solutions and open discussion without the anger, we all need solutions, not the anger.
Again we can not blame our neighbor, for truly in the long run he/she is us, they really did not make up the framework for this disaster, they just came to the party like good invitees and partook in the party favors – did not want to disappoint the host…..
My post was directed to the greater picture – the homeowner who obtained these products was offered product that heretofore had never and I do mean never had been offered before en mass. The model had no trial period, the guidelines were non-existent in that they were nothing we had ever predicated risk decisions on in the past (let alone the guidelines allowed for utter non accountability for credit, capacity and collateral issues), again no tested models. We had done Sub-Prime in the mid 90’s, but with entirely different models, nothing ever within the scope of this free for all. We were dealing money like drugs, the borrower has been “sold” the advertising model that their home is an ATM that anyone, anyone could own a home. Just look at the continuing advertisements on the idiot box for credit products. This nasty, complicated toxic product with non-existent support to the risk model has devestated our markets. Now we can cheerfully just say that it was Sub-Prime, but it was not, it was Alt-A, then FNMA & FHLMC decided to try and compete – take at look at their losses to date. Fraud was rampant, the models supported it and actually condoned it, rewarded it with approval for everyone.
Then there were the investors, true real estate investors stayed their rational course, but the others who were wooed into the morass, they were either crooks or dupes, and I lean more to the dupes side of the equation (fuzzy logic, would rather believe that the consumer whom I have worked with for years was ignorant and uneducated not criminal), however there were too, a lot of crooks out there feeding off the frenzy of easy money and non-accountability allowed by the guidelines.
The talking heads are diverting our interests as usual, if they don’t talk about it, it don’t exist. Well today they are talking about it, even they can not ignore this Market. Where this all goes, anyone’s guess, but I am not guessing with the impulsion of the World Markets lack of confidence and anger at our duplicity, that it is going in a “good” direction. Yes they are holding us accountable, as we are indeed accountable. We can only shore this mess up for just so long with the interest rate reductions and economic stimulus packages, more smoke and mirrors.
Now please let us all arrive at some consensus and solutions, factor out the blame for guy down the street, he/she is the one that needs our solutions, as such he/she is us, we need the solutions.
fuck dr. phil that bald guy this country run by a criminals and used my the money to spend in the stupid war while this country economy are going bad and this crooks crimninals like the wall street pigs,lenders,agents,appraisser and loan officer taken advantage due to lax of landing that what they were train off to fool hard working american give them loan that they cant afford because of that YSP they give homebuyers or put them in bad position because they make more money if you give them toxic loan or ARM bullshit even they could qualify to prime loan. so fuck the govt. who dont do shit! because all those pigs from wall street lobby for there own interest in the congress that’s why this things happen and its to obvious they been bailing out the the the big compnay like,BofA,wamu,HSBC,wachovia etc. for lowering interest or whatever they called it basis point i dont speak good english but i know little shit!
this country is a big bully run by a criminals they said this is the land of the free maybe the land of the freak! people around the world dont have idea they think this country is like paradise but people whose here already know what really america is.racism still exist poor in here geeting poorerwhile rich getting richer they used war as an excuses just to make the criminals in this country specially the bush administration to make profit doesnt matter how many innocent civilian get killed just get get theyt own interest its to obvious bush family business is OIL so that’s why they go to war and his partner in crime dickhead dick cheny his compnay HALLIBURTON making millions or billions of contract while invading iraq and rebuilding the country bullshit! this is the kind of people who run in thius country. i hope those powerfull people should stand up for what is right or wrong in this country and its about time the good govt stand up and run this country bush administration cant even fix KATRINA problem. so god bless america. and may god bless this country or punish it
hans,
I think you have a point to make but it’s lost on me. A few suggestions.
1) Use proper sentence structure including punctuation and capitals.
2) Plan out your thoughts. Make your arguments flow. Try to limit yourself to a few concepts and expand on them.
3) Skip the swearing. It distracts from your point.
This message os great but we need it in Spanish as more than half of the hispanic people in the United States do not read English,and there is at least one person in every Hispanic family who has access to a computer and can read this and will read it or it will be read in English and translated ,or transpired to them in Spanish by some family member or relative or of some type of close relationship to them . They are’ In Tunned’ more that the people in United States ‘ know ,on the NEWS AND THE MEDIA as it affects /and has affected ‘Every Home ‘ more than ever in the Hispanic Communities/Homes in our country and thier native country as well .
The message is We Are Listening /We are Watching ” the News and the Media Accoss the Board .
All if the Topics Written here in English do “no good’ in posting them only in English if they are not posted in Spanish,so they can reached to all Hispanic’s in all communites . Whether you be 1st genration from your country here in the United States or 5th or 10th.
All Immigrants deserve a chance to read or undestand what is going on in ‘thier language ‘ no matter what language it maybe .They are her elike our fore father were ,who made our country what it is today ,in all nationalities ,they came from differnet parts of the world to form our “New World ” that we have today .We still have our ‘American Dream ‘.
Maybe it would be a good idea to get out that cup of coffe and read those mtg documents before you sign them.
Who needs self reliance, right Poppy $#@#$^*^&%%#