About the Author
Moe Bedard is a leading expert and trusted authority in regards to loan workouts and loan modifications. Moe is the founder and President of Loan Safe Solutions, LoanSafe.org and the main contributor to LoanWorkout.org. He has blogged on this subject more than any other person on earth and has personally been involved in over 300 loan workouts and mortgage audits.
I feel for you, and I know how difficult dealing with COUTNRYWIDE can be
Submitted by a homeowner, Carrie from Florida:
Hi R. Whelan,
I feel for you, and I know how difficult dealing with COUTNRYWIDE can be. I found this awesome forum: www.loansafe.org more specifically: www.loansafe.org/forum/countrywide-home-loans-tell-us-your-countrywide-story/ this forum is dedicated to help homeowners and the specific part of the site only to CountryWide homeowners. This site has been a blessing for me and my family and you will see that you are not alone !!!!
People on this site will help you and guide you through the right departments etc to get you the help you need to modify your loan since you are not able to refi as I was.
GOOD LUCK on your CW journey and wish you success.
Carrie Miami, FL
Popularity: 4% [?]
May 20th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Moe,
Get a life, there is nothing wrong with what he wrote. You are coaching people to tell lies and admit they have no common sense. You support people that cheat the system and don’t pay their mortgages. YOU ARE DISTGUSTING. You are really not helping these people at all, all of this will come back to them down the road and where will you be?
It is not all one sided blame, all are to blame, quit acting like everyone lost their brain when they signed on for a mortgage. Most of these are losing nothing as they put NOTHING down. There are 2 sides to every story, something you obviously don’t believe in.
Quit acting like Christ the Savior and give these people real honest advice and how not to do again.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Moe,
Get a life, there is nothing wrong with what he wrote. You are coaching people to tell lies and admit they have no common sense. You support people that cheat the system and don’t pay their mortgages. YOU ARE DISTGUSTING. You are really not helping these people at all, all of this will come back to them down the road and where will you be?
Quit acting like everyone lost their brain when they signed on for a mortgage. Most of these are losing nothing as they put NOTHING down. There are 2 sides to every story, something you obviously don’t believe in.
Quit acting like Christ the Savior and give these people real honest advice and how not to do again.
May 20th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
To Get Real:
You wouldn’t happen to be Angilo Mozilo, would you? Don Bailey is absolutely correct to seek help by using a form letter when presenting information to his lender. Most people don’t have professional writing experience and these letters help them to convey their message in an organized and coherent manner.
It is Angilo Mozilo who was completely unprofessional. The man has pilfered billions of dollars from home owners and then filed bankruptcy. As a notary, I’ve seen first hand that borrowers don’t understand their loan programs, and their lenders didn’t explain the information in the loan docs. And this email is a perfect example of the “help” they can expect to receive when contacting their lenders.
Where is your compassion for someone who’s had a bad turn in circumstances? Some one who is not just sending in the keys, but asking to work out a deal to remain in their home? You are the one who is DISGUSTING (by the way check your spelling).
May 20th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
This is Dan. Evetything I wrote in the letter to CW is true. I do have equity in my home(40-60,000 + the sweat equity of re-modeling it myself), I never took a 100%loan out on it, I have been paying my mortgage for 16 years.
May 20th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
People who don’t bother to read or understand what they are signing do not deserve sympathy or assistance. If you buy a car, but don’t test drive it first, you can’t complain that it doesn’t drive the way you liked. If you take your stock broker’s advice on a hot new stock to buy without doing adequate research - which may involve learning how to value stocks or talking to a trusted friend or relative who does - you can’t complain when you blindly put all your money there and the stock tanks.
I absolutely disagree that the common person can’t understand how a loan works. Not to mention with the slew of documents that you receive prior to a purchase, or the documents you have during your 3 day period following a refinance, you have more than adequate time to have an attorney, or a friend/relative with more experience, review the documents if you can’t figure it out yourself.
It’s like buying a used car that isn’t all that great, and believing a salesman that guarantees you can buy a new car in 1yr as long as you make your payments on time. How can you be stupid enough to believe that? It’s more that people didn’t want to think about the consequences of their decisions, in order to take advantage of short term savings. And because they didn’t get lucky while gambling with their home, or because they didn’t have the common sense to take the necessary steps to be certain of what they are doing, now they want to cry foul. It’s absolute BS.
Most of these people, in all honesty, shouldn’t own a home to begin with. They got lucky that loose loan programs even afforded them the chance to buy a house, because with a traditional loan they couldn’t afford the payments. They should have been renters, and instead took the quick and easy path to getting into a house. And now, they are getting squeezed out, to get back to where they should have been to begin with…renting…and are upset. Most put no money down, so they lose nothing, excepting the people that spent money in improvements, however even that is mitigated by the thousands of dollars in mortgage interest tax deductions they took advantage of.
If you take out a loan - any loan - and it is adjustable, that is what you have. You can’t cry out that you were promised something different at some ethereal future date…the fact is, you have what you have. For all you know, the loan officer you dealt with could be dead in a year. Or their mortgage company could have folded. So simple common sense dictates that you can’t just assume you can go back to the same person/company at any point, no matter what they promise. Assuming that is just plain stupid. And everyone knows that.
I can guarantee you that if appreciation in housing was still going strong, none of these people would have a problem with their loans, or feel they were taken advantage of. But now that property values aren’t going their way, suddenly they are ‘victims’. And actually they are….of their own greed, stupidity, and willful ignorance.
There are a few out there that truly have reason to complain, and deserve help…I’ve met them, helped them out of their loans, and given them phone numbers to various government agencies to try to get some kind of justice. They truly are victims. But most people are not. But the problem in America right now is the prevailing entitlement mentality, and the idea that everyone is a ‘victim’. Start taking some personal responsibility for yourself, and the choices you passively or actively make.
May 20th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Dan,
I am no fan of Mr. Mozillo, but I think when he said “Distgusting” he was refering to websites that coach people how to walk away from mortgages and not you.
May 20th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
let me get this straight and I START BY SAYING SUPPLY CAUSED THIS NOT ANY TYPE OF LOAN,
but you are saying that it is evil for the customer to get help from “anyone” ON A CONTRACT THAT “TANGELO” PAID BIG BIG ATTORNEYS TO WRITE, I know, those contracts are all WRITTEN BY THE BEST ATTORNEYS IN THE NATION, now the buyer can’t ask “anyone”. Here is the basis of the problem and you know what - more and more keys in the mail and these companies are going to go “poof” in the night……….Tangelo will be walking the “Enron” purp walk before this is thru but lots more blood on this horizon…………..
May 20th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
For the ones who say Countrywide did nothing wrong. You get a subprime loan, rate is good on a 30 year fixed but you tell them that take the 2 year ARM, 12 months of clean payments and we will get you into a better deal. I work as a loan officer and I hear people pitching this line all day during that timeframe. Instead of telling people take the 6.5% on a 30 year fixed, they give them 5.5% on a 2 year ARM. Alot of the time they were never offered the 30 year fixed. Now rates go up and these customers are screwed. The loan officer didn’t do the what if’s and the customer pays there bill on time. Alot of loan officers straight out lie to the customer stating rates are not going up. As far as the loan paperwork, to whomever says they understand fully the terms of the loans who does not work in the mortgage industry is full of it. These forms are confusing and never explained properly. Its the lenders who should eat some cost here, they need to offer low fixed rate terms based on what was offered at the time the loan was taken out. Who is the genius that came out with no doc, low 600’s credit score loans. Its absolute greed and Countrywide and Ameriquest lead the way.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
So BS is saying that the onus is completely on the home owner for purchases and refinancing? Wow, that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever read!!! While I agree that people should be responsible for their own actions, BS is making a very broad assumption that everyone who bought a home in the last five years was poor, greedy and deserved to rent.
Consumers do not only pay loan officers for their ability to match them to a loan, but also for the officer\’e2\’80\’99s ability to match them with the very best loan they can be approved for. Lenders and loan officers are supposed to abide by a code of ethics, as they are providing a service to consumers. It is the lender and loan officers\’e2\’80\’99 duty to fully disclose the loan program and fees to the borrower.
Consumers who pay stock brokers to give advice on their portfolio deserve the same professional expertise and treatment. You’re example of a car dealership really isn’t relevant since cars are more tangible than loans. Since when does paying an expert for their knowledgeable service make the consumer responsible for the service they receive? Why does BS believe it\’e2\’80\’99s alright for loan officers and lenders to make a profit off consumers without returning the very best service? Why even bother having loan officers then? Lenders have a responsibility to go above and beyond for their customers. They have not, period.
I believe your type of thinking does a great disservice to those families and individuals that have had unfortunate changes in their circumstances. Let’s face it, jobs are drying up; food and gas prices are through the roof. Even those who can afford their house payments are feeling pinched, and it only takes an unexpected accident or job loss to throw a lot of folks into the street. Maybe your greedy, lame home owner argument worked last year, but times have changed. Even the common sense, responsible homeowners are losing their homes now.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
well, we MUST have some CW reps on the comments post. They seem to take things VERY personally these days… but wouldn’t YOU if your large home was going to be one of the jingle mails if Tangerine Head closes shop…FOR GOOD? Or stupid (I mean really stupid) BOA does NOT buy you out??? And I have been writing them for over a decade and I can tell you every one I have done was because the borrower trusted me (which is why I sleep well at night, because what I told them was THE TRUTH). YES, I lost many loans to CW when it was all hot and heavy, but then again I was NOT cutting and pasting W@s and stubs, if not worse. CW sucks. They STILL refuse to give a prospective borrower a GFE because they KNOW they will never see that prospect again! The day Tangerine Head goes to jail to live in the cell that was set aside for LAY from ENRON is the day I will smile a mile wide
May 20th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Wow. I compete with Countrywide so I’m no fan; however, I am tired of hearing borrower’s complain that they didn’t understand what they were signing. Yes, lenders could have done a better job of double and triple checking that borrowers understood what they were signing. In the same way, if borrower’s want the freedom to take out credit for hundreds of thousands of dollars, they are equally responsible to not sign something they don’t understand. The bottom line is, American consumers as a whole spend rougly 10% more than they make on any given year. There’s your problem. If a mortgage payment going up a hundred dollars or two hundred dollars a month (average first adjustment) has the ability to derail your whole budget, you probably were over extended. I know because I’m in the same boat. Instead of blaming someone else, I now have two full time jobs to make ends meet until my situation gets better. I am responsible and I am now doing what needs to be done to fix my situation. Hopefully, if nothing else, we’ll all learn that a lot of our problems around this area could have been avoided by us spending less and saving more.
May 20th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
It doesn’t matter whether Mozilo thinks anyone is disgusting or anyone else for that matter. CountryWide is in this predicament by their own doing. If Bailey wants to serve them a shit sandwich, they have to eat it. It’s just business. Mozilo knows how to serve shit sandwhiches as well as anyone.
May 20th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
So Mr Bailey, answer me this. If you bought your house in 1992 you would have plenty of equity to refi your loan or sell it and move down ,Yes actually move to a cheaper home, wow a new idea. But I bet you are from CA and like many in CA you rode the waive of Cashing out every nickel of equity over the years and now you are upside down. I do feel for your job loss etc… but thats life..
get over it and move on, quit blaming everyone for your own problems.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
In my dealings with Countrywide over the last several years, I have come to realize that a great deal of financial planning went into Mozillo’s company. We will see in the coming months just how much, as more and more States Attorney Generals have a look see at business practices. Countrywide, again and again show their true colors, yet are the first to say they were the ones taken advantage of. I have been in the mortgage industry for over 18 years and have never seen a company use and abuse their position in the industry. When all is said and done, and 100’s of thousands of people have lost their homes, Mozillo will sit on his beach and reitterate how disgusting “those” people are. God Bless
May 20th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
I have compassion and sympathy for Mr. Baily’s plight. What hasn’t been addressed is the fact that this is a nationwide problem. Mr. Bailey went through the proper channels and is getting no where with the evil empire Countrywide. Just like so many others who are willing to pay and just need a modification with their mortgage so both parties win. Does anyone who is posting in this forum know how to get this done? Has anyone had succuss dealing with the lenders and getting a modifictaion accomplished? Maybe Mr. Bailey can get some solid advice from those with experience. Anyone???
May 20th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Sure there is blame on both sides. Mozilo’s a greedy SOB, and the borrower is ignorant. But our country does a fantastic job of allowing our citizens to hold no accountability for their actions. If someone buys a cup of coffee, and because of their own ignorance/negligence spills the coffee in their lap, they sue the maker of the coffee. If a citizen chooses to pork out at mcDonalds 5 days a week and develop heart disease from obesity, is the makers fault. If a citizen smokes a pack of cigarettes daily for 20 years and develops lung cancer, it’s the fault of the tobacco company. We have a million fixes for every problem. Our biggest problem, and obstacle to growth in this country is enabling this type of stupidity to propagate. That, combined with the insta-grat (instant gratification) mentality we have allowed ourselves to become accustomed to are to blame. not the mortgage industry.
May 20th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
First of all, it’s highly unlikely that the e-mail actually came from Angelo Mozilo. Perhaps written for him on his corporate e-mail account and sent as an automatic response when their filters pick up on the similarities in these form letters.
There’s nothing wrong with asking for help with loan modifcations. It’s what I do, along with the many services I provide. If more people realized their limitations and asked for help in this world, we would all be better off for it.
But there is something disgusting about this. People who have a lifelong habit of biting off more than they can chew, thinking they know everything when they really don’t have a clue about anything. I have assisted with hardship letters, and not one of them are as ridiculous as this one. Do you think a lender is going to take pity on someone who once placed a greater importance on getting high than being a productive member of society?
Tell the truth. Each set of circumstances stand on their own merit. If you as a homeowner are anything less than 110% straightforward and above-board with your creditors you will have LESS THAN ZERO credibility with them and they won’t lift a finger to help you. Not only that, they will sometimes even go out of their way to see you kicked to the curb even faster, if they can find a way to do it.
If you want the loan modified PROPERLY, LEGITIMATELY, and CREDIBLY, in a manner that keeps the homeowner’s dignity intact and does not insult the lender’s intelligence, let me know. I am glad to help.
May 20th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Mozillo is a self centered egotist. Should anyone expected more from him?
May 20th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
“Alot of the time they were never offered the 30 year fixed”
Jesus Christ! Then it is the home buyer’s fault for only going to one broker/bank and not doing ANY research. And I do mean not doing ANY research. Everyone who buys a home knows of the 30 year fixed, do not lie and act like they don’t. These people wanted something for nothing. They wanted low interest with no risk. They wanted easy appreciation with no risk. They gambled and they LOST.
If their homes were still going up in value they would be laughing at everyone else who DIDN’T get into the housing bubble. Some of them did. There is no pity for any of these people because they were greedy.
May 20th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
“For the ones who say Countrywide did nothing wrong. You get a subprime loan, rate is good on a 30 year fixed but you tell them that take the 2 year ARM, 12 months of clean payments and we will get you into a better deal. I work as a loan officer and I hear people pitching this line all day during that timeframe. Instead of telling people take the 6.5% on a 30 year fixed, they give them 5.5% on a 2 year ARM. Alot of the time they were never offered the 30 year fixed. Now rates go up and these customers are screwed. The loan officer didn\’e2\’80\’99t do the what if\’e2\’80\’99s and the customer pays there bill on time. Alot of loan officers straight out lie to the customer stating rates are not going up. As far as the loan paperwork, to whomever says they understand fully the terms of the loans who does not work in the mortgage industry is full of it. These forms are confusing and never explained properly. Its the lenders who should eat some cost here, they need to offer low fixed rate terms based on what was offered at the time the loan was taken out. Who is the genius that came out with no doc, low 600\’e2\’80\’99s credit score loans. Its absolute greed and Countrywide and Ameriquest lead the way.”
Last time I checked the home buyer goes to the broker/bank to get a loan. I think you are confusing who is greedy. No broker/bank FORCES you to take a loan. They didn’t put a gun to these people’s head to take a loan. You are saying these people have no personal responsibility.
I’m sorry, but if you are taking a loan out for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, maybe you should have it looked at by a lawyer, family friend, or SOMEBODY who knows loan paperwork. Just because these people are so damn stupid to just sign away their life (30 years right?) without reading their paperwork doesn’t mean they aren’t at fault.
The only people who are at fault are the people who took out the loans, because they have the ultimate power of saying, “NO!”
May 20th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
“For the ones who say Countrywide did nothing wrong. You get a subprime loan, rate is good on a 30 year fixed but you tell them that take the 2 year ARM, 12 months of clean payments and we will get you into a better deal. I work as a loan officer and I hear people pitching this line all day during that timeframe. Instead of telling people take the 6.5% on a 30 year fixed, they give them 5.5% on a 2 year ARM.”
Sounds like a greedy homeowner again. Instead of buying a home to live in, he gambles his entire home on an adjustable mortgage that could go to any interest rate. The homeowner was greedy and felt he shouldn’t have to pay the 30 year fixed rate.
May 20th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
I worked 5 years at a subprime lender that did not offer Neg-Am, Option ARM or any other BS “exotic” loans. Yes, we did fully amortized 3-5 year ARMs, but they were fully explained and do make sense for credit repair purposes - not for fake promises of what will happen in a year. The problem was that because they were legitimate loans, and not other companies’ crap, the price was higher. I had hundreds of conversations with borrowers explaining the truth of what was going on out in the market and where that path would lead them - EXPLODING PAYMENTS and FORECLOSURE. 99% would not even listen because they loved their 1% payments from their favorite broker. Now that everything that anyone with half a brain could figure out is finally happening, I say two words…TOO BAD! These borrowers weren’t duped. They got exactly what they wanted - Homeownership at any price so they could impress their friends. As someone said earlier, they should have been renters anyway, so all they lose is a little pride. Learn from your mistakes and let housing prices tank. At least the next generation of homebuyers/owners can get smart loans for houses that are priced realistically.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
I have to laugh at the maxed out homedebtors and loan officers and the like pointing fingers at each other. Both groups of you are pathetic individuals. I hope the maxed out homedebtor loses his home and credit for at least 15 years and I hope the loan officers that made these loans lose their jobs and have to do something like pick tomatoes for a living. Maxed out homedebtos should likewise have some type of indentured servitude toward society. You both happily looked the other way while times were good. Now that you have both made your bed I hope you both have to lay in it and leave the rest of us out of the matter.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Amen to Brandon. Quit expecting the rest of society to save you from yourself. If you were a “subprime” borrower, your problems started lonnnnnng before your “sbprime” loan.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
I don’t mean to sound insulting, but it looks like everyone who got themselves in a bad situation is jumping on the “woe is me” track. I agree with Brandon and Nooooooaccountabilty.. you got yourself in over your head, and if you were already a credit risk, you have not learned how to exercise self control. Of course there are bad Lenders out there, jsut as there are bad cashiers at the gas station to try to give you change for a 10 when you handed them a 20, but do you just take the change for a 10? Your financial future is your responsibility not the governments, the lenders or the tax payers.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
It gives me a rash to read some of these posts as most come from those that are in trouble trying to play the system.
I am one of those borrowers right now going through the loan modification process. When I bought my house, I knew what was going on with my financial situation as did my broker setting up my loan. What I neglected to tell him is that I had the potential of losing my job come spring but I just had to have this house because it was; bigger than most my friends homes, had a pool, hot tub and a sweet wet bar. The house was a bit spendy for me but the income ratios were ok and even better if I did an interest only loan so that is what I chose to do especially knowing my chances of losing my job. I had enough back up monies in my savings to get me through about 5 months until I regained employment but guess what, yep…I LOST MY JOB!
May 20th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Sorry, I got cut off from my post.
Anyways, the point being is that I am a true hard working american and when the shizit hits the fan and it is my fault, I step up to the plate and accept responsibility. Where is everyone else’s out there that wanted to be just like me and have the biggest house on the hill but knew the affordability was borderline but sucked it up.
I am now back working two jobs not even in the same line of work I was in and I am making things right. Iam able to sleep at night by accepting my life’s changes and I do not blame anyone but myself. My loan payments have been made to Countrywide for almost 3yrs now and in fact, they were very cooperative in working with me to help me make things right. It did take some time but all in all I still have my home and my family and I do not need to find an apartment to reside in.
Let’s see more accountability people! Oh and one more thing, my realtor was very involved with my purchase and also helped me understand a bit on the loan side of things and not once did she say holy crap, do not do that kind of loan as you will be up shizit creek without a paddle someday. So keep in mind that there seems to be numerous hands out there that can help guide borrowers such as myself. As I go through my old loan documents, I counted 63 copies of the documents that I had to sign, initial or read over. How can one miss that they have an adjustable rate mortgage?????
Frickin’ UNBELIEVABLE in my opinion!
Live each day as if it were your last people cuz life flies by fast. Own up to your mistakes and we can all get along just fine as we are notorious to forgive and forget as time goes by.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
With almost 40 years in mortgage banking, and having worked as an underwriter, I can honestly say there are areas in business I am not very familiar with either. No one is perfect in understanding all aspects of life, that is why you go to professionals. You wouldn’t go to a dishonest insurance agent to get house/car insurance, as you trust them to find the best fit, they are “brokers” and supposed to work for you.. The problem is the brokers, loan officers etc., were only after the money, and NOT very educated. Simple as that. It was not regulated properly and that is why so many people (besides the investors, and over buyers) are in trouble. The loans were too lose, and the people making them didn’t know how to explain and were motivated by greed. I am looking forward to a rebirth of the industry that will rise through the ashes, and promote honesty and trust.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Moe, I just love this one. Dan this is great!
Nonetheless, folks need to realize that everyone and every loan doesn’t fit in a neat little box you can answer with a fortune cookie sentence.
Once again though, I don’t want to sound like a broken record here, but comparing buying a car to buying a home, buying stocks, or gambling doesn’t fit in the same zip code. That particular point isn’t even worth addressing a ninth time. A mortgage is a SECURED debt, secured by the value of the property. Wall Street, CDOs, MBS, low interest rates, and creative financing fueled this speculative bubble that has burst and is falling from the sky and has since put our mighty dollar into a tail-spin. The sooner this mess is cleaned up the sooner the economy is turned around.
Additionally, this post doesn’t address government intervention at all. It illustrates a homeowner working with his lender, and also gives you a good picture as to what that can be like. The lender issued the loan as a ’secured instrument’ secured upon the value of the property. I would venture to say that most homeowners knew they were borrowing money (someone else’s and often at 100% financing) to buy a home. Nonetheless, they probably didn’t realize that the bank they were borrowing it from also had no skin in the game and was in turn lending them someone else’s money as well. The bond ratings agencies called it all gold even though it smelled like a (blank) and everyone enjoyed profiting on their little cut in the transactions. Like it or not, both parties (lender/investor(s) and borrower) stand to lose.
If you live in a bubble state it doesn’t matter if you have the best prime loan available in the history of the mortgage market, if you bought near the peak that doesn’t add up to much of a plus today. If life events force a change, you’re stuck. Yes, a bad loan makes it even worse but asking for help from an unmanagable situation doesn’t necessarily mean a person is not holding themselves accountable for their own actions. I would tend to believe it positively reinforces the notion that they may just be actually trying to correct themselves - thereby minimizing the damage to both themselves, their creditors, as well as their neighbors and community. Let’s face it, the price declines are going to continue for some time so long as new buyers don’t fall into the same trap that many of the present ones did.
Let us also not forget about those that sold near the peak and prospered possibly moreso than they should; including all those bonuses to executives and fat loan/realtor commissions on what where undisputedly inflated appraisals. I’m not suggesting anything out of whack here or off beat here - good for them (some of them anyway) but they aren’t the ones left holding the bag. The lender/investor and borrowers are holding the bag and have the most to lose, it only makes sense that each should work with the other in an attempt to minimize losses and in turn accept responsibility for their role in the mess.
But what it boils down to is that timing is everything, and I don’t think your going to see this sort of lax lending re-emerge for some time to come. But then, most of this is certainly just my opinion which no one needs to agree with, but it just isn’t so simple as some tend to believe.
But oh Erik; honestly, if you were a bank lending thousands of dollars on a loan secured by collateral and you thought the loan was too large and the collateral would not warrant that amount (loanv value) from an auction - when you lend the money - at 100% LTV? Think about it, you’d go out of business quite fast. Of course not. The lender had every opportunity to say “no” as well.
May 20th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Thanks for all the comments and the bashing. I wouldn’t want it any other way.
What many commentors are failing to realize is that Mr. Bailey is just a person who is reaching out for help in dealing with Countrywide to help save his home and get relief. He researched the internet and wrote a hardship letter (something he has never ever done before in his life) and in doing so, his actions are called disgusting in an email addressed from Angelo Mozilo.
Does he have someone answering his emails? Maybe. We will most likely never know and Mr. Mozilo will never admit it. Does it matter if it came from him or a Countrywide rep? NO!
This is just an inside look behind the scenes of what Countrywide and thier representatives are REALLY saying and how they REALLY feel about helping homeowners.
This email was ACCIDENTALLY sent and ccd to much of the internal staff at Countrywide’s Loss Mit department. My “common sense” reasoning and logic tell me that there are many more emails and conversations like this floating internally.
As far as this BS from all these out of work or barely working loan officers that say he knew what he was signing and he should take responsibility is just the same ole bitter rhetoric.
I have audited hundreds of loans and 70% of the audits reveal predatory violations and or misleading and deceiving tactics that are ALWAYS performed by the loan officer who is usually employed by a broker.
He is a human that is having a hardship and needs help. Thats all. A person who just wants to save his home and his dream. A person just like you and I.
This isn’t just about contracts and dollars and cents.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
This house as an American dream nonsense needs to go. That’s partially what caused these rediculous loans in the first place. The goverment notion of an “ownership society”. That’s another issue however………We can’t talk about every specific case. Are there some unique circumstances that deserve pity, of course. That said, it’s just funny how every homedebtor says they are the one person who was different. And how come no one ever has pity for the young people and prudent savers who were priced out of this market caused by the people who took out these fantasyland loans and couldn’t afford the house. However, you are right about one thing. Mr. Bailey did do the right thing by going to the lender At least we’re not talking about gov’t bailout lunacy.
May 21st, 2008 at 12:15 am
[...] the saga of one Mr. Dan Bailey is particularly illuminating - as we get direct insight in to the mindset of folks inside these [...]
May 21st, 2008 at 12:37 am
“As far as this BS from all these out of work or barely working loan officers that say he knew what he was signing and he should take responsibility is just the same ole bitter rhetoric.”
LOL personal responsibility is rhetoric.
America, land of the “it’s not my fault!”….it’s it’s it’s the bankers fault for forcing me to take a loan….yeah yeah….oh it’s the government’s fault for not watching out for me! Oh oh, it’s definitely not MY fault. Why should I have to read loan documents for hundreds of thousands of dollars? I shouldn’t have to do that, the government should read those documents for me!
As far as banks working with the borrowers, that really is the best outcome for this whole situation. Banks should work with customers if it is in their best interest. I have no anger related to that route. That is honestly how this whole situation should be resolved. The banks should either work it out or foreclose. If countrywide thinks they are being taken advantage of, then they should defend themselves.
But for people to play the woe is me, “whocouldanode”, is complete garbage. The liars here know it.
May 21st, 2008 at 12:41 am
After reading these “sob stories” I have yet to feel sorry for one person here. At the age of 22 my wife and I with 3 children bought a REASONABLE house with an ARM. I qualified for the house with my own credit at a fixed rate, but to help wife’s credit we decided to go with a subprime mortgage. I do not have a business degree, I do not work in the banking industry, and I had never bought a house before. I do however have common sense. I researched mortgages on the internet and when I went to close on my house I didn’t just start signing. I had the lawyer go through every page with my wife and me and I asked questions on things I did not understand.
After 16 months my wife and I contacted Countrywide to refinance our loan to a fixed rate. The person we talked to explained everything to us, and again I did my own research. At closing I again had the lawyer go through every page with my wife and me and I asked question on things I did not understand.
So, I have to ask, why should Countrywide change your terms because you lack common sense and bought a house that you could not afford? I am sure it was clearly stated in your loan that this was an ARM and the rate would increase at certain points through the years.
If I were Mr. Mozilo I probably would be feeling the same way. It is disgusting that this guy is mass e-mailing his form letter hoping someone will feel sorry for him.
Next time why don’t you buy a house you can afford, read your paperwork, and if it doesn’t seem like a good deal then don’t buy the house.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:17 am
[...] mild chatter throughout the blogosphere regarding the matter of how Mozilo is calling homeowners disgusting, I [...]
May 21st, 2008 at 9:23 am
The way I see it is this. This is the BIGGEST purchase you will ever make in your life usually, the LARGEST amount of money you will spend in you life, and the most IMPORTANT decision in your life. People spend years dating before they get married and still the divorce rate is what 50%. How many use the word “unexpected” when talking about their little baby. People can use any excuse they want for anything. I can promise you that NOBODY would give countrywide any % of profit they made on apprication of their home, so don’t make them the root of all evil either because your bet didn’t cash in. It is sad the some honest people get wrapped up in this housing mess but the majority (overwhemling majority) are either stupid people who just wanted to flip a home for easy money (LOL), or people who were given the “golden oppurnity to live in a home the knew they couldn’t afford DEEP down in their hearts”…. if you fit into either of those situation I can help you out… borrow all the money you can from frinds … ebay everything you own… goto vegas and bet on red… and then blame the world on me if you fail… and give me all the credit in the world for your winnings (I do accept gratutity)….
The point is you place yourself in this hole… for the others with real issues…. I am sorry for you status.
Bottom line… if you make $30K a year… you CAN NOT AFFORD A $200K home with no money down…
May 21st, 2008 at 9:35 am
Moe says: “I have audited hundreds of loans and 70% of the audits reveal predatory violations and or misleading and deceiving tactics that are ALWAYS performed by the loan officer who is usually employed by a broker.”
So Moe, would you please tell us exactly in what capacity you were/are employed that allowed/allows you access to such a large number of loan files containing consumers’ very private financial information? Post-close auditor? If so, obviously on retail and wholesale side?
Please enlighten us as we want to give you the benefit-of-the-doubt to understand exactly how you come by “your” knowledge that allows you to make the above statement. Just trying to get a handle on your credibility.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:45 am
Hey Lousie - he got that experience as a mortgage pimp for subprime loans (no credit too bad) on manufactured homes - See the link for “Manufactured Home Loans” at the bottom of this page - MHL Pro, Inc. He’s the CEO. So, I guess if you write enough of them you learn to recognize one. Now he’s trying to cash on “saving” these and similiar f*@ked borrowers by posing as a loss mitigator and loan modification guru. Talk about a bottom feeder - this guy wrote the book!
May 21st, 2008 at 12:14 pm
OK,
Here is what i have to say about all of this.
I was in the mortgage industry for 7years.
I processed loans & became and underwriter for a large Mortgage Company. What some of you are not saying is & I would hear it all the time
the Loan Officer would tell the borrower straight out looking at their face ‘ I am looking out for your best interest, don’t worry, I will get the best loan for your family’
What the Loan officer forgot to tell the borrower is that \{ i will f**k you over if I get an extra 2 points in the YSP\} Also, there were a lot of realtors working with brokers and getting paid for bringing borrowers to them.
THE BANKS made the guidelines for SubPrime loans because they got greedy !!!!! these No Doc programs, Stated/Stated program - Loan Officers, Realtors, Banks etc Selling the Dream of buying a home to people/borrowers they new could not afford it.
I do sympathize with people who were trusting of their realtors and loan officers and did not understand completely what they were getting into and followed/trusted their advice.
Then there are those who at the time of purchase were able to afford it, but due to circumstances in their lives (IE either the loss of a spouse, the loss of income, etc) they now can not afford their homes and are reaching out for help.
I personally have 2 kids and would not like to see myself in the street and lose the home that I was raising them in.
SHAME on those of you who kick people when they are down. Look in your past you are not perfect !
Some of you have made mistakes personally or professionally that you would not want others to know. So I commend Mr. Dan Bailey for standing up for himself and his family !!!!!!!!
I don’t care that he was an addict 16 years ago, but I do care that he had the balls to sober up and get his shit together to build some type of normal life.
For those like ‘get real’ ‘bs’ ‘kaveh novraee’ etc with such negative posts : look in the mirror and when you point a finger there are 3 pointing right back at you !!!
Some people are not educated enough in legal docs etc, so they do ask for advice from Loan Officers, realtors , etc and do not always get the right advice. I am not saying that all Loan Officers, realtors etc are SHADY, but you know that some are and they got very GREEDY when the market was booming.
For the few that always disclosed the correct information and truly helped your borrower , well then more power to you.
Moe & your forum keep kicking butt - I do not appreciate what CW said or has been doing to some of their customers and employees for years. You try calling Customer Service - you get bounced more than and NBA basketball. From India to anywhere else…. Good Luck everyone
May 21st, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Walk into any business today, and you will hear people complaining about the customers.
The hardship letter template is poorly written and is not a good example of what’s effective, so the reaction it evoked is not surprising.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:28 pm
“People who don\’e2\’80\’99t bother to read or understand what they are signing do not deserve sympathy or assistance.”–BS
BS–This is exactly the kind of argument that hundreds of slimy, greedy mortgage brokers have made for the past few years to try and cover all the stench ridden “BS” they’ve slung at their clients. Kudos to you for taking the high road, big guy.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:12 pm
I’m sorry but BS you are soo full of it! I am in this Mtg Industry and for you to blame homeowners is disgusting. I witnessed 1st hand when training that there are hundreds and hundreds of brokers who lied to get homeowners to sign anything. This was the basic “bait & switch” These homeowners were told one thing and signed their docs only to find out later that they were duped!
It isn’t all the brokers fault although many many many brokers were/are cheaters and liars, homeowners were to blame as well because as equity grew millions re-fi’d their homes every chance they got.
Lenders like Countrywide, B of A etc…are to blame also they provided these loans and their staff sold these loans to brokers saying “hint hint, wink wink, say this on the loan app or say a homeowner makes this…we won’t check” Why? because, the lenders, their staff, these brokers were all making tons of money.
It’s easy to blame the homeowner because no one wants to take the blame, but we are all really to blame. But these lenders should have been smarter this mess is all on them!
May 21st, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Although there is little that I would defend Angelo Mozillo on, I would point out to everything that simply copying the same letter and changing the values and dates will eventually cause it to lose it’s effectiveness.
There are a lot of people copying the examples on LoanSafe’s forums almost verbatim. While I wouldn’t have added the word “disgusting”, I can understand his frustrutation at everyone being “coached”. Using your own words to tell your situation and story will make your situation seem more believable, IMO.
Best of luck,
ccsint
May 21st, 2008 at 3:51 pm
I’m not for kicking anyone while they are down, but at the same time, this homeowner was in his house since 1992. So the only way he is in this predicament is that he sucked the equity out his home as though it were an ATM. On the other end of the spectrum, there are people who purchased their homes on a 2, 3, or 5 year fixed program and now their rates have adjusted sky high. They’ve never refinanced the original purchase loan, but the equity they need in order to get a reasonable rate on a rate and term refi simply isn’t there. In my opinion, these are the homeowners who need all the help they can get. They did everything right (except maybe not getting a 30 year fixed, but there are legitimate reasons not to get a 30 year fixed) and they are caught up in the wake created by the dregs of the market and the industry.
Like I stated earlier, I am glad to help any homeowner in need of professional assistance. It’s what I do. But I have found that all too often, these hardships are a result of people being reckless with their responsibilities and having no sense of priorities. I can help them out of this particular situation, but the fact remains it’s only a symptom of deeper and greater issues that they have not handled properly.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:09 pm
I went to an ivy league school, make a very good salary, and can’t afford a decent home in the city I live in. I’m married, drive a 5 year old non-luxury car, and don’t spend lavishly.
I also have higher than average medical bills for my family for things out of my control.
So you know what I do??? I live in an apartment.
I don’t bitch and moan that its the system’s fault that I can’t live in my own house. The American Dream is not a handout, its the idea that you can get something if you work hard enough.
I believe that. I have almost no sympathy for people who shut their eyes, sign on the dotted line, and then blame others when they get burned.
People are greedy, and they want what they want when they want it. So they look the other way when the deal is “too good to be true”
Mozilo is clearly a jerk for writing that, but I don’t have sympathy for the average person saying they’re going to lose their home. Its not their home… they didn’t have the money to buy it so the bank bought it for them. They can always leave and move into an apartment.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Duped? Some small % of people were lied to and coerced into bad decisions. Willful ignorance probably captures another 40% of people who just heard what they wanted to hear and played along even though they may have had reasons to question, taking “bank error in your favor” to an extreme degree. Sorry folks, it is time to be grown ups and accept that your unwillingness to ask prudent questions about loans in excess of $200,000 does not excuse your obligation to pay. Walk away? Fine. Just don’t whine in 7 years when no one will extend favorable terms to you. The rest of the 50 or so % of you who claim a failure to make payments are dealing with your coin flip gone wrong. You just KNEW your property would go up in price (so prescient of your) and you would “deal” with the mortgage you couldn’t afford from day one at another time. Ding! Time’s up. And guess what, it landed on tails, not heads. So be an adult and pay up or walk away (big mystery which one you’ll likely choose) and stop muddying the issue of the few legitimate concerns with your attempts at thinly disguised handout.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Question for Dan…..if you bought the home in 1992 and I would assume refinanced it recently, what did you do with the money from the refinance? You stated in your letter that you assumed that you could refinance after a year into a fixed rate, but the bottom fell out of the industry, meaning the amount of equity you still have is less than 20% of appraised value for a lender to do a refinance. So what you are really saying is that you bet, hedged, rolled the dice, gambled, whatever you want to call it, that something will continue to occur in the future without ever thinking that something else could occur.
Take the money you received from your refi, pay back down the loan then refi into a fixed.
If borrowers want the freedom to take out credit for hundreds of thousands of dollars, they are equally responsible to not sign something they don’t understand
May 21st, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Since when is it the lender’s obligation to help out the borrower. This whole concept is ridiculous unless there is proof of criminal wrongdoing by the lender, not just speculation that was the case.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:56 pm
I consider myself a compassionate individual, and initially I empathized with Mr. Bailey. Face it, we’re all struggling with this depressed economy. However after reading through the various postings, it became apparent that much like the selfishness demonstrated by these corporate parasites, Many like Mr. Bailey attempted to capitalize on the “to good to be true” opportunity concocted by these unscrupulous corporate mongers. At first I too thought what an opportunity, but after some consideration, and a simple reminder of the laws of gravity, “what goes up, must come down” I decided to leave well enough alone. Though i’m dealing with smaller fires, it’s comforting to know that it isn’t because I ignorantly chose to play with matches in a dense forest. I hope you recover Mr. Bailey, and sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours to save your precious home, but more importantly I hope you’ve learned a valuable lesson from all this torment. As for CountryWide and Mr. Mozillo, please help resolve the problem, and quit contributing to it
May 21st, 2008 at 6:14 pm
I used to feel really sympathetic towards those homeowners who are unable to pay their mortgages until I read/heard too many stories about them in which I found nearly all these people have been using their houses as piggy banks or cash cows to purchase expensive stuff, take luxury vacation or do things prudent savers would definitely think twice before doing. I could not understand if a person owned a house for 16 years, how can he still fail to make mortgage payments because for that small house of about 900 square feet, the payment must be very small by now and he would have built enough equity to sell the house with a profit because the value of the house should be higher than the balance of the mortgage even in this market slump. If he cannot pay the mortgage or sell the house for a profit, the only way I can think of is that he has refinanced to get the money out and has spent the money while leaving a big balance in his current mortgage. Otherwise, I just could not understand this, maybe I am too stupid…
May 21st, 2008 at 6:39 pm
No, I don’t have granite counter-tops. No, I did not refinance to get a new boat/car/vacation, etc… No, I did not refinance 100% of my equity. I needed the small amount I got out for an emergency-which is none of your business. For all of you assuming I have a huge beautiful home, re-read the letter, or read it for the first time before jumping to conclusions.
I equate it like this: I wasn’t feeling well, so I went to the doctor-the expert…the doctor said, “take this medicine, it has been helping everyone with the same symptoms. They’ve been taking it for 3 or 4 years now, and it can only make you feel better and cure you, then, when you feel better/are cured…we’ll take you off the medicine. Theres a possibility of side effects, but dont worry- so far everyone is taking it and it can only get better.”
One year after taking the medicine , it is found to cause cancer.
Yes, I took the medicine of my own free will. I listened to the advise of the expert. It was my choice. I was warned there may be some slight side effects….now it’s killing me.
I’m not sueing the doctor..I’m just asking for a cure from the medicine he gave me.
I’m not reading these blogs/forums anymore…you people only make me feel worse.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:53 pm
I hope you feel better there Mr. Bailey but the fact still remains, where did all your equity go. If you owned your house for x-amount of years and only took out a small amount, why didn’t you just do a second mortgage or a Home Equity Line? There seems to be something fishy here and it just seems wrong.
I just cannot seem to find any sympothy right now for these stories…is this a right or wrong feeling to have? I dunno.
Best of Luck there Mr. Bailey…you got the press you needed.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I have a question…Did Dan ever say that he went to a Countrywide office to get his loan? Or was this a loan that was sent to Countrywide to service thru the wholesale or Correspondent channel? Also, why has Dan not been speaking with Countrywide’s servicing department? Why is he sending out mass emails to any name he could find? Also, the email came from Dan Bailey Photography Studio, is it very likely this guy used his house to fund his business, did he do a stated income loan and lie about his income? We are very quick to blame without researching all the facts. Dan might be a stand up guy who is just in trouble, the appropriate department of Countrywide is happy to help thousands of people just like Dan. Or is Dan a deadbeat trying to get something for nothing? Either way, mass emailing the CEO of any corporation about your plight isn’t going to get the job done, you have to go thru the appropriate channels. The media blowing this up into corporation v. the little guy is what is disgusting.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:23 pm
One of the stories I heard over the radio was from a live interview between the presenter and the homeowner who has problems paying the mortgage when the rate reset. The homeowner’s original monthly mortgage was about 2800 dollars and after reset, the mortgage ballooned to about 8000 dollars a month. When the presenter said the bank could cooperate and reduce the payment to 6000 dollars a month, and the homeowner just said something to the effect she would probably better forget about this offer. When problems are getting out of proportion like this, I wonder whether the bailout plan would ever work. I just don’t know how people would believe they can take a loan like that unless they thought they would be able to make profits within a year or two by selling their house and never even bothered to think or read carefully the loan doc in the first place. It just happened things are not turning out like they had expected. Who should be to blame then?
May 21st, 2008 at 7:26 pm
well, i think one thing is clear- whatever the reality may be with what borrowers used the money for, country wide and other lenders were clearly manipulating borrowers on a grand scale. after all, if country wide were not, why did they go belly up due to so many bad loans? it could set a world record.
frankly, i find it strange that lenders for these at-risk companies, who have had to witness their own colleagues lose their jobs and who risk the same fate, blame the borrowers instead of themselves. if these industry professionals hadn’t pushed a bunch of borrowers into turmoil for higher commissions during a housing bubble, this crisis wouldn’t have been so severe. if i were a betting man, which i am not (i chose to rent the last few years for exactly this reason), i would say 3 to 1 many executives go to jail over this crisis– our man at the top included. then it will be perfectly clear they a. were and are wrong, b. acted illegally, and c. are responsible for fraud on a massive scale.
if you don’t agree with me, then why does country wide need to be bought out to stay alive after their enormous successes? (btw, isn’t that the same thing as asking for help under troubled times?) top lender to socio-economic burden; how tragically ironic.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Mr. Bailey, if you refinanced for good reasons as you said in your last post, then I apologize if my first post offended you. I also sympathize with those people who bought their houses in the last few years with the intention of staying in their houses for years but had lost the ability for mortgage payment due to unforeseen hardships. These people really deserve help. But for those people who never even thought of paying off their mortgage when they sign ed the loan doc but just wanted to take advantage of the temporary low interests to flip their houses for quick profits, I don’t think they deserve help. They should get out of the mess by themselves and learn the lessons the hard way.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Quote
Kaveh Nouraee on May 20th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
First of all, it\’e2\’80\’99s highly unlikely that the e-mail actually came from Angelo Mozilo. Perhaps written for him on his corporate e-mail account and sent as an automatic response when their filters pick up on the similarities in these form letters.
Perhaps we need to address this one.
Mr. Mozilo, did you personally write this email?
May 21st, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Question:
If a homeowner had recently went out and took out $50-$100,000 of equity in his/her home and then just decides that the market sucks and they are on an adjustable rate or interest only mortgage and just decide not to pay and take the cash and run…what are the ramifications to said homeowner?
Seems to me that it would be a great idea if it only damages your credit for a few years.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Here is my two cents for what it is worth. As a Countrywide employee for over 7 years, I was frankly horrified by Angelo’s unintentional response to Mr Bailey and others in his situation. Please be assured that Mr. Mozillo’s response does not represent the hard working people of Countrywide.
I work daily processing workout modifications for many of CHL’s customers. Entire departments full of hundreds of people are working diligently on the borrowers behalf to save peoples homes from foreclosure. Please do not think the comments of one person ( even if he is Angelo Mozillo )speak for Countrywide as a whole.
Please be assured that Countrywide is doing all they can to assist their borrowers. Are we perfect ? No. Do we make mistakes ? Of course we do. Every company does, even the best of them. But we are honestly trying to the best by our customers. Foreclosures are not the best solution to the subprime mess this country finds itself in. Countrywide is not in this alone. Many other companies offered the same exotic loan products as Countrywide and find themselves in similar situations. Many companies closed their doors as this mess began to unravel. Many employees found themselves out of work and thru perpetuated the growing foreclosure crisis. As for me, a Countrywide employee, my 401K is gone… completely as are the retirement funds of all of my co-workers. And yet I am still a proud Countrywide employee. Why ? Because at this stage of the game, I want to help as many people save their homes as I possibly can. I am not lucky enough to be a homeowner. I don’t even make a salary high enough to qualify for a loan. Many Countrywide employees don’t but we still show up to work each day and help as many people as we can because we do care. Regardless of the comments of our CEO.
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:33 am
that’s why it’s so important to read your keyboard and i can’t stress enough the importance of familiarizing yourself with your keyboard strokes and basic e-mail functions. if only he had paid more attention and hit fwd on Lotus Notes instead of reply/reply all…*sigh* also, always C.Y.A.
that is something they teach in RING RING. whatever you do, CYA.
great. now underwriters are turning down a lot of loans, due to income being unreasonable - “stated income reasonability”. so if you’re a w2 employee or have fixed income and dont have other hard-to-prove income, you do have to go alt-doc now. say goodbye to F&E and reduced doc loans. plus the 5% hit on soft markets. starting this wknd too, R&T refis are restricted to 45% dti. :rolls eyes:
ps: going back to the e-mail from uncle anj. i believe that he meant to say that taking whatever is coached from these boards is the disgusting part. not the actual e-mailing or the person him/herself.
ps2: Go San Antonio !!
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:36 am
[...] The Countrywide email exchange: [...]
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:36 am
i heard about this site this morning because of the press coverage about Mozilo’s e-mail. sites like this are a great idea and in my opinion a public service.
my thoughts and prayers go out to anyone that got caught up in Countrywide’s zeal to screw both their customers and shareholders. i have to speculate that the economy down shifted faster than Mozilo could unload the company.
anyway, i’m sure this is going to add fuel to the fire but what the hell. i have a fixed rate mortgage with Countrywide, so fortunately i only got screwed by their excessive ‘transaction’ and ‘loan origination’ fees that never pop up until you sign loan documents. recently i noticed that they took out large amount of money from my escrow account to pay my home owner’s insurance. the funny thing is i pay this myself. after contacting Farmer’s Insurance, i found out that they (Farmer’s) have access to homeowner’s accounts and could verify that the money was withdrawn from my escrow, but the rub is Farmer’s never received the money. this has been going on for three months. everytime i call Countrywide the story changes. finally i recorded the conversation and told them i prepared to file a complaint with the State’s Attorneys office. A week later i guess Farmer’s got premium and i’m supposed to get a refund for what i overpaid in insurance. my comment to this ordeal is i feel that Countrywide is using customer escrow account to finance their troubles.
i’m curious what you feel?
May 22nd, 2008 at 9:01 am
Thank you Tracy, you’re a classy individual. Unselfish, humble, and prepared to assist rather then criticize. Maybe your employer should consider you for a training position on situational Leadership… ;o)
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:31 am
“A Real Countrywide Email From the Office of Angelo Mozilo - Email Below Calls Homeowner Disgusting… Mainstream media usually tells the same homeowner story of pain and suffering and then the \’e2\’80\’9cmade up\’e2\’80\’9d stories from the lenders and servicers who are masters of deception and lip service.”
Moe and Dan:
I can’t support a “homeowner” who uses a “made up” form letter and tries to get HIS way with it. If I were you Dan I would have been terribly embarrassed about being caught plagiarizing (with or without permission from the original author, it is what it is). I didn’t see anywhere in the email response from Angelo where he called you “disgusting.” Clearly his disgust was at the receipt of another identical “form letter.” You guys aren’t fooling anyone, save for the miseducated band-wagoners who like to point the shame finger.
May 22nd, 2008 at 1:56 pm
I will ask one simple question to the rude and ignorant people in here about the “pre-written” or “”plagiarized” form letter. Since you feel no sympathy, and so much of a better person…
When you sent out your first ever resume, did you create it from the top of your head, or use a template? Did you automatically know what it should contain, or did you copy an example and use your information? Hmmm…
Step out of your arrogance for one second and stop commenting when you have never had to deal with it before.
You people are all equal to Mozilo himself. The primary issue with America today is that nobody has any compassion. It’s if you are not living like me, it’s your fault, and you are a worthless human. I am ashamed to be an American because of that. This country has many good, hard working people, and they are all squashed by the ones that got a Harvard degree and marked as “worthless” or disgusting. Not everyone is born to a politician or rich parents. Some people have to fight to earn what they get. The silver platter baby’s that grow up to look down on people and not treat everyone as equal (a founding moral of this country) are the ones that are disgusting.
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Countrywide may not be the most reputable company in the business, but they did fill the need of many borrowers who were in the market to buy property in the real estate boom. How many of these borrowers complained then? Probably none or a few at most. I agree that the word “disgusting” is referring to the “man behind the curtain” fueling these surge of emails and not the borrower in financial trouble. I work in the financial industry and workout mortgages daily. It makes most sense for financial institutions to workout the mortgage instead of foreclosing. Countrywide may not be ethical in most cases, and personally, I am not a fan; but lets call a spade a spade. People who are on the verge of losing their home should contact their mortgage holder and insist on being heard.
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Response to Eric….I don’t agree with your post. As a banker who works very closely with mortgagors in financial trouble, I do have compassion and seek proactive ways to salvage their house so it becomes a win win situation. Generally, mortgagors backgrounds and financial status at birth have nothing to do with their real financial issues. An ethical workout officer (or like) will see the realistic possibilities of the borrowers and set the mortgage where its affordable. Extending the term and reducing the interest rates are a couple of possibilities. Forgiving part of the principal or splitting the note are a few more possibilities. The common denominator in any successful workout situation is communication and borrower(s) ability to make the payments under the workout agreement
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:39 pm
I was looking for a first home to buy. Here in CA, they are rather expensive. I was told by more than one loan officer at different banks that I should get a 2 year ARM, resell the house after those 2 years and then use the equity generated as a down payment on a better house that I might like.
If I had followed their advice 18 months ago, I would now be in the same predictament that many others seem to be. I was told by three different financial institutions to basically gamble with the housing market - which in this case would have been a financial disaster.
I asked the same questions everyone else does - How much can I get? What will my monthly payments be? Can I make those payments cheaper? I am sure that what they gave me was the cheapest way for me to go but not ONCE was I informed that after those two years of the ARM, I would be bent over my house and spanked by the same helping hand of the institution.
Yes, there is fault at the borrower’s side of things too. I was told this a multitude of times when I was deep in credit card debt. When I told a bank that I owed $30K to that I’d have to file for bankruptcy, I was told “Well you could win the lottery tomorrow.” I was told there was no one else to speak to and therefore I went ahead with the bankruptcy.
A week after papers were filed with them, a VP of the bank - you know the people I couldn’t talk to - called me and offered to work something out. I told him that I gave that chance to the person on the phone (and gave that person’s name to him) and that he should talk to him about losing $30K plus interest because he wouldn’t think of dropping my 18% to 5%.
They’re out to make money - that is their job. People do need to guard against it because they will always color things if it means that they can squeeze more money out of you.
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:40 pm
A few thoughts…
1. There is nothing wrong with sending a form letter to address a business issue; it isn’t a creative writing exercise.
2. It is hard to say whether Mozilo is referring to the borrower or Moe Bedard when he uses the word “disgusting.” But since there is no evidence that the letter was an attempt to defraud or deceive Countrywide, it is hard to sustain the comment in any case.
3. Banks and lending institutions should be better regulated, if not for the sake of naive borrowers, then for those who have honest investments in mortgage securities. They bear a huge responsibility in creating this mess.
4.Many, many borrowers ARE greedy, dumb, and financially illiterate. They DO have a responsibility to know what it is that they are signing, and they are NOT entitled to a mulligan just because the lender may not have frightened them sufficiently with every possible financial scenario that might befall them. You do not need a college degree to understand what “adjustable” means, nor should you need one to calculate a percentage. There is such a thing as due diligence on the part of the borrower. If you can’t read a contract, don’t sign it.
5. There is no evidence that Mr. Bailey was irresponsible or that he spent all of his equity during the boom years as one poster has suggested. There are many legitimate and unforeseen circumstances that can ruin a person’s financial standing, and we should give him the benefit of the doubt.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:04 pm
This whole thing with Dan smells. First it is his responsiblity to pay his mortage and not anyone elses. If he can’t pay his mortgage, then he should not be living in a house and should rent. Everyone thinks they have a right to own a house well they don’t.
Dans email is evident that maybe all the money he spent fixing up his house he should have been saving up to pay his loan.
Dan its time to take responsiblity for your own actions. Countrywide owes you nothing and does not have to do anything to help you. You signed an agreement to pay a mortage and if you can’t pay it then you should not be living in the house. Maybe you can get smart and sell the house and rent and then actually save money. Sounds like you used all you money to fix it up and know you want someone else to bail you out — the tax payers.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:45 pm
This is a great dialogue. After reading the pompousness of the “caveat emptor” replies and the conciliatory “who-done-what” replies it doesn’t suprise me that the mortgage industry is in dire straits.
We know the Fed & Greenspan promoted homeownership at any cost. A-n-y c-o-s-t.
Good news is that from 2001-2005 the economic expansion (driven by consumer spending) was a result of home equity growth. As a society we ate it up by creating historic levels of personal debt.
The bad news: to sustain mortgage growth and demand 2006-2007 was increasingly liberal mortgage terms to attract marginal buyers into the market.
Let’s consider the value of the marginal buyer. For 16 months (from Q1/06-Q2/07) the marginal buyer propped up the market. But now that the market is declining there could be no stopping it in several areas where there was little or no justification other than cheap money to trigger a run-up in the 1st place.
So what have we learned?
Recession cycles have been longer when the market and real estate are correcting simultaneously. Even with huge fed intervention in interest rate reductions the stock market is down 10%+ from its high 7 months ago. But it is relatively easy to work out or change mortgage rates to keep people in homes (and reduce the number of foreclosures).
Changing the terms of a mortgage with userous terms IS NOT breaking any sacred covenant.
In fact, any argument that it is is naive (at best) and criminal (at worst).
Laws in all 50 states exist to limit usery rates.
These laws have not yet been applied to mortgages but perhaps they should be.
The prime rate today is 5%. Some ARM rate increases are reported to be in the 11-12% range. This differential would qualify to trigger usery laws in several states.
Frankly, I’m suprised that broad class action suits have not been filed against lenders who, in the face of declining prime rates, continue to enforce loan terms that will unequivocally lead to default. There is strong evidence from the letter from the Countrywide CEO that companies are indifferent to their customers. It matters little to whom the remarks (that are at the root of this chain) were directed. What does matter is whether the financial industry sees themselves as accountible for clear thinking and decisive action as seminal American institution.
There can be no doubt that creative minds, in financial institutions, defined liberal mortgage terms to entice marginal buyers into the market and sustain growth. The question now is whether those same institutions will be held accountible for the short-sightedness of their creation.
Before we get too maudlin about the “poor lenders” let’s remind ourselves that many of these are the same folks that charges service fees on credit cards that are now under federal scrutiny.
Unlike other industries that create goods, produce or manufacture this industry makes money on money. Of course that’s obvious. The only question is what is a reasonable rate of return on marginal loans in a time of recession.
Reducing ARM mortgage terms to a consistent premium (say 2-2.5 points over conventional terms) and fixing that rate for up to 5 years, would provide ample return to the institution and reduce the number of foreclosures.
The industry should police itself.
But it may need a swift kick in the ass to get its brain working.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:56 am
DCL,
Great post, I like your logic. Even I enjoy the “caveat emptor” posts but “caveat venditor” does apply just the same. You just don’t hear it as much.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:55 am
First, what the hell is wrong with everybody. Listening to debates about who is to blame is like listening to two politicians pointing fingers at one another and claiming the other guy is responsible for the mess the country is in.
To be fair, everyone has to accept some responsibility with some taking a larger share of the blame than others.
We can start with the evil SOB Greenspan and his henchmen for their hand in lowering interest rates below where they should have been and his blatant promotion of ARMs over fixed rates loans. May he rot in hell.
Of course, the greed factor, which plays a major role in likely every financial fiasco, also reared its ugly head. The wrong products were pushed to the wrong people for the almighty $$$$ that was to be made and the public bought into it big time. For those who knowingly put people in products they knew they wouldn’t be able to afford, may they rot in hell as well.
At the bottom of all this is the lowly consumer and to a certain extent they carry some of the burden as well.
Unfortunately for the average borrower, the industry has done such a masterful job of masquerading just how vile and sordid this entire business is, most were led to believe this is an honest industry with people working in it who actually cared about the people they were about to fleece.
And to think we are the country that tells everyone in the world to model what we do so they can all prosper like us. There is your joke of the day.
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:14 am
I just want you to know that there is currently a lawsuit against certain morgage companies. Countrywide is one of them.
Certain Mortgage lenders are doing one appraisal and if they do not like that amount then they get a second appraisal and they tell the appraiser that they need it to come in at a certain amount and next thing you know you get the loan based on that second amount which by the way is illegal. My husband and I bought a house and refinanced it in 4 years our payment went from $1108.08 to $1971.93 we only have one income and a 16 yr.old Our mortgage company who is countrywide told us to do a hardship letter we did, but before they got it they denied us. then we recieved in the mail from a legal firm stating that our mortgage might of been done illegaly and for us to send a copy of our loan papers to them and sure enough We are currently involved in a class action lawsuit against our mortgage company. If I were you I would take all of my loan papers to a mortgage lawyer and see if your loan was done right. in your loan papers you get 5 right to cancel paperwork all 5 of these must be filled out if they are not that is in violation of the laws. this might be your only hope these days just to save your house. In fact before I sign anymore loan papers of any kind I would show them to a lawyer and have them explain the mumbo jumbo of it before you sign. Countrywide refused to help us as well. They told me that any of my finanacial obligations are to them 1st and formost. That is not true. Food, medications gas is the first on mine. my mortgage is next then my bills. No one has the right to tell you that any money you oweshould go to them first and foremost. I have been fighting countrywide for the past 4 years, and we would of already of lost our home if it weren’t for the lawsuit. Compaines like coutrywide are basically robbing people of their hard work and their pride on what they accomplished so far in life. We are all suffering and these big corporations are taking all of that away. If you are rich then you can afford it, but if you are poor or in the middle class your screwed.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:33 am
“My husband and I bought a house and refinanced it in 4 years our payment went from $1108.08 to $1971.93 we only have one income and a 16 yr.old” Gee, you think maybe refinance was not a bright idea?
“No one has the right to tell you that any money you oweshould go to them first and foremost” That is so true Miss Chrissy, but they do have the right to take the asset you put up as collateral!
“In fact before I sign anymore loan papers of any kind I would show them to a lawyer and have them explain the mumbo jumbo of it” OMG! They get it! They finally get it!
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:38 am
Countrywide stinks in so many ways. They are in my opinion at least half of the reason the housing market is the way it is. Their lending practices should raise and eyebrow or two. Their loan officers were paid huge bonuses to do certain types of loans. The Option Arm paid the most, in some cases 10k bonus. Lets do some basic math, 5 loans per month x 10k = 50k income for some. Do you really think some of them cared the customer would not be able to make the payment in a year or two. Now that is disgusting! Now where I live most of the “short sales” and foreclosures are owned by Countrywide. People are making offers to buy them and wait weeks for an answer. Why? Because Countrywide wants to sell it to the highest bidder. The only problem is no one is bidding. These homes have been on the market for more than 6 months or more than a year. The prices/values of every home in the county are dropping like rocks and Countrywide is sitting on them. For what? These homes are trashed because the people got mad because Countrywide would not work with them. They took all the appliances, they took the cabinets, then went crazy inside with spray paint. These homes need 10’s of thousands of dollars worth of work and Countrywide thinks they will get top dollar for them. They are truly making the housing market worse than it needs to be and they are hurting the economy. They are not having the lawns cut, the neighborhoods look disgusting! Bank of America should rethink their buyout. I wouldn’t work for them if they were the last lender standing when this mess is over!
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
As an upcoming professional I have come to realize and would like others to realize this; just becasue a bank will lend it to you, this doesnt mean you can afford it. This a major problem in our society today, how many of us borrow money for everything, even if it is just going out to dinner. Live inside your means and life will be a little bit easier.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:14 pm
This post is directed at Crissie
So because you in a class action lawsuit against Countrywide Finanacial this means you dont have to pay your mortgage payment huh? Wow maybe all of us should start a class action lawsuit against all our mortgage companies or i should join yours since my mortgage is with Countrywide, then maybe i wont have to pay my mortgage. I am glad you finally see tHAt cash-out refinancing your home and jumping on the bandwagon probably wasn’t the smartest thing to do. Nice post from idoits, Chrissie what part of $1971.93 per month did you not understand. Now with that said, lets ask you what kind of car did your cash out buy you, or what kind of boat do you now have
I say it once again; WHAT PART OF 1971.73 PER MONTH DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Crissie
Since your daughter doesn’t need you making every decision in her life any more, thats what happens when we grow up (we start being able to make our own decisions) why don’t you get a job? Why are you still a stay at home mom, when your daughter is now 16 years old? You should be thanking your lucky stars that you were even able to be a homemaker, that your husbands income could pay most of the bills for your most of your childrens lives. So now that it is over, if you did your job, you should have no problem with you not being at home when your daughter gets out of school, if you have done your job she should be able to make good decisions without you.
Quite crying, take some stress off your husband and go out and get a job, even if the job is only minimum wage, it will take some stress off, you can even find a job at home.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:15 pm
its easy to see who the non-parents and renters are from there loathing of homeowners with kids, and their super-parenting homeownership management skillset.
After all, since they have no kids or a home, there track record is 100% in all aspects… right?
love getting parenting advice from single people with no children, and hatred from renters about homeownership issues…
what else…. I have an idea, why don’t all of you start a coalition of the sighted versus the blind? how about
ABPADP - Able Bodied People Against Disabled People: ITS YOUR FAULT!
u people… please stop breathing my air.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:39 pm
To Crissie
Per your post you imply that in a four-year period
your payment increased from $1,108.08 to $1,971.93.
You also imply that you have been fighting w/ CW for
four years. Did your fight w/ them start immediately
upon the heels of your first payment adjustment? When
was that again? How long ago did you recieve the
invitation to participate in the class-action law suit?
Also, what was the purpose of the refinance?
How much are you currently paying to CW or at least
into an attorney-held escrow account while your case
awaits trial? The reason I ask is that cases involving
mishandling of proper rescission are not as cut and
dry as legal council may imply and wrong or right, such
cases tend to come under unusual heightened scrutiny to
reject any possibility of a simple “loop hole” out.
So, assuming you were given proper legal advice, how
much are you paying each month and to whom are you paying it?
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
I’m not a soul reader, but I do get the sense that Mozilo’s “disgusting” refers more to yet another of a flood of almost identical EMs that sites (well-meaning or vindictive) have been encouraging homeowners to SPAM Countrywide and other lenders with in less than discriminative way.
We’re not privvy to the real details, but it does appear on its face that the person sending the EM has had some real financial issues (as opposed to the morons that bought more house than they could afford, took out interest only loans, or scraped out equity for unnecessary home improvement, purchases, vacations, etc.) I feel for his circumstances and would support any willingness (not obligation) of the lender to re-negotiate based on hardship.
However — I do have to ask, what would he have done if, when he considered refinancing in the first place, he was told by Countrywide that it was a bad idea and that they would not give him the money. Maybe he would have stopped then, taken the advice to heart, and reassessed his financial position. If so, good for him. However, most people would have thought about it long enough to call the next lender in line to see if THEY’D give them the money.
As an outcome, we’re going to end up back in the days of 20% down and documented income only. That’s going to lock out a lot of people from buying houses, including one’s who would have made smart decisions and carefully managed their finances to do everything possible to not jeopardize their investment (incl taking on loans that they were unlikely to be able to afford). Give it a couple of years and people will be screaming about banks not providing “affordable” purchase financing options… >sigh<
I do find any tax payer bailout of these loans completely disingenuous, and a fraud on taxpayers like myself who a) bought within their means (read “smaller house than could have been ‘approved’ for) b) took a common sense loan (read “no interest-only, ARM at century-low rates, etc.” and c) budgets aggressively to be able to build a savings to cover mortgage in case of emergency (read “no way in hell is pulling out equity to spend on ANYTHING that isn’t life threatening”) will have to foot the bill for a large % of people who made at best poor, uninformed and at worst selfish and greedy decisions. It’ll be a great double whammy — I’ll continue paying my mortgage on a property that’s worth less due in part to the spike in foreclosures and will have to potentially pay increased taxes to support a bail out. Thanks guys!!!
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Chuckk Beef
you are a moron, how many people raise quite a bit more kids then 1 and both parents work, and to think that the people that are saying these things dont have any kids. The daughter is 16 years old, she should be raised by now, oh i get it, you are also married to a women that dresses her kids till they are 19 and makes every decision for your kids as well, ok now I get it. Kids need to be giving opportunities to finally get out and start making there own decisions while there is still time to correct the wrong ones
Moron
May 23rd, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Inbetween homeowner bashings - try reading what exactly it is you’re jumping on the bandwagon about. If you read what Crissy is saying I believe that when she refinanced her home her initial payment was about 1100 bucks per month after the refinance, and now it has adjusted to a little more than 1900 bucks per month. That’s almost a 100% increase in the monthly payment over the last four years. You know the drill, take this ARM and in a few years you can refinance to better terms. To ice the cake a little sweeter here’s a three to five-year prepayment penalty for you. Many folks were waiting for the expiration date of the refinance kicker fund to the bank execs prior to seeking better terms and now that the housing market has tanked and they’re upside down seeking a better rate is out of the question completely.
Do buyers bear some of the burden and some of the blame - of course but I don’t they shoulder it all and if foreclosure is a better deal for the bank then that’s the six ticket ride the parties can take together. Last month in the state of California alone over 40,000 homes were taken back by banks, so the foreclosure tree is being shaken at an accelerated pace. This is going to be a rough ride for the whole economy, but what’s done is done and pointing fingers for what may have been past mistakes isn’t going to make the future any brighter.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Tom,
sure everyone had a hand in cookie jar, but problem is not Chrissy nor Dan Bailey are taking responsibility for their own stupid decisions like cash outs. No, they all are suddenly hapless victims who had nothing to do with what happened to them. The fact that these folks did benefit from cash outs and thus making them co-conspirators kinda escapes their feeble brains.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:44 pm
I know there a lot of cases out there were the homeowner were paying there mortgage payment on time tell there was a hardship. Yes there is some loans that should have been against the law. Like the pay options arm loans (not arm, pay option arm loan). But there is way to many people that are felling sorry for themselves and do not want to face the fact that THEY SIGN a bad loan or THEY SIGN a loan they really could not afford. Yes, maybe people have paid they house payments on time for the past 5-10-15 yrs. But what people are felling to mention is there has been refi along the way. So what the loan amount first started with, has now tact on 10 of thousands of dollars and your mortgage payment have grown to be more then what you were paying in the 5-10-15 yrs. ago. When you sign the paper work it tells you how much your loan amount is and what your payment amount are and how high that interest rate can go up to. If you did not understand the paper work, you should have taken it to a attorney to help you. Because now no one has a problem talking to a attorney now to help them, or file class action law suits. And that \’e2\’80\’9cequity\’e2\’80\’9d that people like to say is \’e2\’80\’9cthere\’e2\’80\’99s.\’e2\’80\’9d Well you only get that equity if you sell the home. Not by refi and BORROWING the money from a company. Equity is no free money the bank owes you. And why is it ok for people to now bitch that they no longer have equity so the bank should lower there loan amount. The bank still had to pay someone all that money when you bought your home.
If you are renting out your home and the tent does not pay you. You would evict them. So why is it not ok for the bank to do the same thing.
My point is if you bought a house, I\’e2\’80\’99m sure you\’e2\’80\’99ve had or have a credit card. And I\’e2\’80\’99m sure people now how the interest rates work when they adjust. Or some may have bought cars.
Going back too the Pay Option Arm Loans. Really you know what you can and cant afford. I would not go out and by a BMW, I cant afford it. People should have used the same mentality in buying or taking out the equity in there home.
May 24th, 2008 at 2:58 am
I have had a very difficult time. After fixing mold in my condo I took the equity and purchased a home three years ago. The realtor forged my escrow docs and we have been in litigation for fraud breech of contract and non disclosure for three years. I was three months behind in mortgage payments due to the cost of legal fees, mold remediation (realtor conspired with inspector she insisted to hire) and was not safe and 40 grand in undisclosed code violations. she was the dual agent for the guy in her office that was the agent seller owner and builder of the home. long story short. I have renters now in the ho